No Trains on Boxing Day

[SynthD]

With the railway, there is an argument that they are doing the same thing by doing works over Christmas albeit with no data to prove there's reduced demand. If we had a cast iron, copper bottomed survey that proved running over Christmas and Boxing Day would actually be socially good and at least break even, if not make a profit, would it then be acceptable to move away from the Christmas shutdown?

It would likely tell us it makes the least profit, that the least people rely on it. As the railway is, in theory, flexible over which 350-360 of 365 days it runs, the socially best option is to disbenefit the fewest people. The cold hearted economist would probably go for a nine day closure every year in this period. Any relief from that would be because assets are tied up in other works.

 

[Topological]

It would likely tell us it makes the least profit, that the least people rely on it. As the railway is, in theory, flexible over which 350-360 of 365 days it runs, the socially best option is to disbenefit the fewest people. The cold hearted economist would probably go for a nine day closure every year in this period. Any relief from that would be because assets are tied up in other works.

Someone focusing on finance may make that argument.

The economic objective function is based on utility, and whilst having more money makes us happier, the marginal effect of the extra £ is higher at lower incomes. Therefore, the economist is unlikely to cripple Christmas travel in that way.

I can imagine economists choosing more long work blocks for engineering than are currently undertaken, but it would be unlikely that would be chosen to completely cover Christmas. Without the numbers to hand, I suspect early January would see more long closures.

 

[The exile]

Do not get into that debate with an economist

Suffice to say almost all travel on the railways is want and not need.

I do not need to work in a different place to where I live, but I do and that generates revenue for the railway. Aside from some cases of low paid workers needing to be further from their places of work due to property prices being inflated near those work places rail travel need is very low. I have to single our groups who could not afford an alternative private means of transport, and for whom bicycles would not be a workable option. Even then there are ways to provide alternatives to rail travel such that rail travel is not needed.

Thankfully, we have not gone down the need route and so we have services that provide for wants. People want to travel on Boxing Day for many reasons (which then answers the demand for Boxing Day travel question).

There is ,however, a vast difference between “I have a one-off desire to visit Aunt Muriel / see Mudthorpe United / grab a bargain on December 26th” and “I’ll lose my job if I can’t get to work” - even if the “need” in the latter case is in fact caused by the desire to live somewhere other than where I work. The Christmas period is probably the time where the balance of “want” travel to “need” is most heavily weighted towards the “want”. Imagine freight demand is also down, which is also a consideration for long blockades.

 

[Topological]

There is ,however, a vast difference between “I have a one-off desire to visit Aunt Muriel / see Mudthorpe United / grab a bargain on December 26th” and “I’ll lose my job if I can’t get to work” - even if the “need” in the latter case is in fact caused by the desire to live somewhere other than where I work. The Christmas period is probably the time where the balance of “want” travel to “need” is most heavily weighted towards the “want”. Imagine freight demand is also down, which is also a consideration for long blockades.

Undoubtedly, but we are not talking about avoiding scheduling blockades. The point here is about having no trains full stop.

Most of the weekend is about similar wants, meaning Boxing Day is really just like a weekend, but with the added wrath of Aunt Muriel if you do not visit.

 

[Wychwood93]

Do not get into that debate with an economist

Suffice to say almost all travel on the railways is want and not need.

I do not need to work in a different place to where I live, but I do and that generates revenue for the railway. Aside from some cases of low paid workers needing to be further from their places of work due to property prices being inflated near those work places rail travel need is very low. I have to single our groups who could not afford an alternative private means of transport, and for whom bicycles would not be a workable option. Even then there are ways to provide alternatives to rail travel such that rail travel is not needed.

Thankfully, we have not gone down the need route and so we have services that provide for wants. People want to travel on Boxing Day for many reasons (which then answers the demand for Boxing Day travel question).

Well, this other thread:https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/historical-boxing-day-services.279121/

Is a good start with regard to Xmas etc. services.

This bit in particular is of interest: https://davidturnerrailway.wordpres...emise-of-christmas-train-services-since-1948/

 

[Krokodil]

Guess Airlines fly due to the rest of the World, or a lot of it, being back to normal on the 26th, so if the airport is open, you may as well do domestic flights too !

Short-haul does reduce a lot, but long-haul generally carries on, mostly for operational reasons because of the distances covered.

It could be argued that these issues are caused by inadequately specified trains.

Well specifying redundant 325s for Friday/Saturday night, race day and match day services would certainly make cleaning up after drunks a lot easier. I worked a late turn on Mad Friday, walking through the train I had to be very careful what I stood in. I felt sorry for the cleaners. To be fair, football fans do at least seem to be able to hold the booze down compared with racegoers and clubbers, but the language used can be very intimidating for other passengers.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

While you may be one of the well behaved ones, as someone who works on the train I can say I get most if not all of my issues from the large groups of chanting football fans.

What you may not notice from your seat is the amount of passenger alarms being pulled that the driver has to deal with then the groups standing far to close to the platform edge, people urinating and being sick on the train, especially when it’s behind the drivers door and I can smell it, banging on the drivers door, holding doors open, blocking doorways because they are oblivious to others.

So what you may consider a stereotypical response if often a reality to me on busy football days.

You have my sympathies - there were two types of travellers that made my heart sink as a coach driver: football supporters clubs and hen parties. Vomit, milk bottles full of urine, trails of unidentified fluid down the windows, and the random petty theft from motorway services that seemed to go with every break... at least the cost of getting a CPC wasn't worth it as a part timer and saved me from those typical weekends jobs!

It would likely tell us it makes the least profit, that the least people rely on it. As the railway is, in theory, flexible over which 350-360 of 365 days it runs, the socially best option is to disbenefit the fewest people. The cold hearted economist would probably go for a nine day closure every year in this period. Any relief from that would be because assets are tied up in other works.

I think I may not have been clear... I was asking a question about a hypothetical report suggesting that running over Christmas would break even at the very least, if not make a profit, and it would provide a social good, so would that change the optics of when to do the work, rather than asking what a real report might say

 

[BoroAndy]

It would likely tell us it makes the least profit, that the least people rely on it. As the railway is, in theory, flexible over which 350-360 of 365 days it runs, the socially best option is to disbenefit the fewest people. The cold hearted economist would probably go for a nine day closure every year in this period. Any relief from that would be because assets are tied up in other works.

May have some logic to it, but, what happens if engineering and their unions start demanding christmas time off ?

 

[Wolfie]

Lumo would be running frequent services if this government would let them. “Fume”

They paying the whole cost of signals etc in order to do so?

 

[dk1]

They paying the whole cost of signals etc in order to do so?

Considering the OA operators pay such minuscule access payments anyway i very much doubt it

Not sure why others don’t understand or see this.

 

[Turtle]

They are the worst type of traveller though. Often groups of drunk grown men looking for opportunities to be a menace, display anti social behaviour, intimidate other travellers and sometimes commit acts of vandalism.

For me that’s more incentive not to want to work on boxing day.

Edit: sorry replied to the wrong person it was meant to be a reply to 1D54

You had me worried for a moment!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Considering the OA operators pay such minuscule access payments anyway i very much doubt it

Not sure why others don’t understand or see this.

They generally pay just as large or as little real access payments as other operators do, given that FTA is a totally bogus access “charge”.

But any operator, whoever they are, will have to pay NR for the additional staffing cost of turning a dormant railway into a live one and that will be prohibitively expensive unless quite a few other operators join in to fund it. It’s not just the cost of signallers, there are engineers and other operating staff to bring in as well.

 

[Krokodil]

May have some logic to it, but, what happens if engineering and their unions start demanding christmas time off ?

Why would they? They're paid a decent whack for doing so in recognition of the particularly antisocial shifts they'll be working over the festive period. If they weren't then they'd vote with their feet. Just as Northern guards (among others) have.

 

[BAFRA77]

While you may be one of the well behaved ones, as someone who works on the train I can say I get most if not all of my issues from the large groups of chanting football fans.

What you may not notice from your seat is the amount of passenger alarms being pulled that the driver has to deal with then the groups standing far to close to the platform edge, people urinating and being sick on the train, especially when it’s behind the drivers door and I can smell it, banging on the drivers door, holding doors open, blocking doorways because they are oblivious to others.

So what you may consider a stereotypical response if often a reality to me on busy football days.

Never had those issues when travelling on services alongside football fans.

The worst lots were definitely rugby crowds and racegoers (especially when Cheltenham and the Epsom Derby are on) - only time I've encountered fist fights on a service

 

[AverageJoe]

Never had those issues when travelling on services alongside football fans.

The worst lots were definitely rugby crowds and racegoers (especially when Cheltenham and the Epsom Derby are on) - only time I've encountered fist fights on a service

Well sorry mate and i mean no offence with with just because this has not been your experience doesn’t mean it’s not been mine.

As a passenger you will see a small percentage of what is going on as someone who is in the job day in day out.

As a driver who works for a toc who will pass multiple big city’s and towns in a single trip I can have multiple different football fans on during a journey.

And I will always have some problems.

I also used to work on trams years back and we would regularly have to take them out of service on football days because they would chant and punch the ceiling panels through as they did so. The roof would be dripping with blood sometimes.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Why would they? They're paid a decent whack for doing so in recognition of the particularly antisocial shifts they'll be working over the festive period. If they weren't then they'd vote with their feet. Just as Northern guards (among others) have.

You could have said the same about drivers and guards getting a decent whack for RDW or Sundays, yet here we are...

 

[Haywain]

As a passenger you will see a small percentage of what is going on as someone who is in the job day in day out.

I find it hilarious that you think that as a driver you see so much more than anyone travelling on a train.

 

[AverageJoe]

I find it hilarious that you think that as a driver you see so much more than anyone travelling on a train.

Can you explain what you mean?

 

[Haywain]

Can you explain what you mean?

You are clearly dismissing anyone else’s experience as counting for less than yours, as the following line demonstrates:

As a passenger you will see a small percentage of what is going on as someone who is in the job day in day out.

The reality is that shut away in your cab you see very little of what passengers experience.

 

[AverageJoe]

You are clearly dismissing anyone else’s experience as counting for less than yours, as the following line demonstrates:

The reality is that shut away in your cab you see very little of what passengers experience.

Unbelievable.

I explained my experience as a driver during football days.

Someone said that they didn’t experience that.

My reply is that just because you didn’t experience that it doesn’t change my experience.

All of the things I listed as part of my experience I see every time I work on football days.

At no point did I dismiss their experience.

And as regards my role you are completely wrong but I won’t waste my time discussing this with you any longer because I don’t think you know what you are talking about and I find your view hilarious.

 

[Mag_seven]

Right that's it - we are done here.

It's clear from posts above that some of us seem to be incapable of being polite and respectful to one another on this issue.

In any case it looks as though the Dft are not in a position to fund extensive Boxing Day Services any time soon anyway.