No Welsh Trains to Manchester Airport (Now approved until December 2017)

[Greybeard33]

Network Rail have said they do not support ATW's plan for additional Airport services: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/20766/nr-rep-plan.pdf

According to TfGM ATW have now proposed taking over one of Northern's slots which will mean the all-stops service would go and one of the longer distance services would stop at all stations between Piccadilly and the Airport but they do not have the support of TfGM to do that.

Are you referring to the latest TfGM Local Rail Service Performance and Station Issues report? That said that:

TfGM lodged a position in opposition to the application by Arriva Trains
Wales to secure a direct path to Manchester Airport at the cost of a path
between Manchester Piccadilly and the airport.

This wording is confusing, but I do not read it as saying that ATW want to take a path off Northern. The NR letter you linked indicates that ATW has asked for an additional path to the airport, with the impact being to reduce headways and cut the turnaround time for the TPE Blackpool services.

The UK DfT has also opposed the ATW application, in this letter of 18 Nov 2015 to the ORR. An interesting point from it:

The key point here is that under the terms of the Joint Parties
Agreement that sets out the responsibilities of the Welsh Government (WG) and the
Department in relation to the management of the ATW franchise agreement, the
contractual right to consent to franchisee applying for particular access rights for ‘Welsh
services’ is exercised by the WG. So, while Rail Executive has for some time been
aware of the aspirations of both the WG and ATW in relation to Airport services, we have
seen this issue as being properly a matter for the WG under the Joint Parties Agreement,
and ultimately for the ORR as arbiter where the industry cannot agree on the most
appropriate allocation of rights.

I would reiterate that Rail Executive does not dispute that ATW’s proposal would offer
benefits to passengers in Chester and North Wales. The issue is whether alternative
uses of the available capacity might offer greater benefits.

See also this written answer of 5 Jan 2016 from Andrew Jones, Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the UK DfT.

Regarding the Northern stopper, after completion of the Hub in 2019, it appears that the plain is for Northern to have (off peak) 6 of the 10 hourly paths from Piccadilly to the Airport, with TPE having the other 4. 5 of Northern's paths will be taken up by Northern Connect services, to Cumbria, Blackpool, Liverpool via the Chat Moss, Liverpool via the CLC and Bradford via the Chord. So one of these Connect services will in any case have to call at all stations between Piccadilly and the Airport, in order to provide 2tph at the intermediate stations.

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding the Northern stopper, after completion of the Hub in 2019, it appears that the plain is for Northern to have (off peak) 6 of the 10 hourly paths from Piccadilly to the Airport, with TPE having the other 4. 5 of Northern's paths will be taken up by Northern Connect services, to Cumbria, Blackpool, Liverpool via the Chat Moss, Liverpool via the CLC and Bradford via the Chord. So one of these Connect services will in any case have to call at all stations between Piccadilly and the Airport, in order to provide 2tph at the intermediate stations.

Liverpool to Manchester to Bradford is set to be a Northern Connect route but I don't think the other Liverpool to Manchester via Chat Moss service will be. Surely that will likely the all-stops service on Chat Moss using 319s?

I think it's worth pointing out the 6th service would be the existing Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly service for anyone who doesn't know the Airport service frequency off the top of their head.

This wording is confusing, but I do not read it as saying that ATW want to take a path off Northern. The NR letter you linked indicates that ATW has asked for an additional path to the airport, with the impact being to reduce headways and cut the turnaround time for the TPE Blackpool services.

I couldn't find a TfGM objection to the proposal which Network Rail have objected to, so I'd presumed it must be a new proposal that TfGM are objecting to.

 

[WatcherZero]

Rail says that while they had originally wanted a new path they have now accepted NR's argument thats not possible and want to take over a Northern stopper path instead.

 

[Greybeard33]

Liverpool to Manchester to Bradford is set to be a Northern Connect route but I don't think the other Liverpool to Manchester via Chat Moss service will be. Surely that will likely the all-stops service on Chat Moss using 319s?

Yes, my mistake - I was mixing up the coloured lines on the map on the slide entitled "Northern Connect" in the Arriva Rail North presentation. The purple line on the Chat Moss goes to Leeds via Victoria and Bradford. So the Liverpool-Airport will likely be all stops as you say, with the four Connect services limited stop between Piccadilly and the Airport.

I think it's worth pointing out the 6th service would be the existing Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly service for anyone who doesn't know the Airport service frequency off the top of their head.

Rail says that while they had originally wanted a new path they have now accepted NR's argument thats not possible and want to take over a Northern stopper path instead.

Oh right - that news does not seem to be on the Rail website. If the ATW service were all stops, it would mean that ATW would have less recovery time at the Airport, so increasing the risk of delays to TPE and Northern services. Also, post-Hub, the Northern Liverpool stopper would have to be extended to Crewe via Wilmslow - not sure if that would work timing-wise.

The "elephant in the room" is that the Hub study originally promised that there would be 4tph around the Ordsall Chord, but only three have so far been announced - the two TPE North and the Northern Airport-Bradford. One possibility for the fourth would be to extend the Northern Airport-Picc stopper to Stalybridge via Victoria - but that would not be possible if ATW takes over the path.

 

[northwichcat]

The "elephant in the room" is that the Hub study originally promised that there would be 4tph around the Ordsall Chord, but only three have so far been announced - the two TPE North and the Northern Airport-Bradford.

Did they say 4tph between the Airport and Victoria or 4tph between Piccadilly and Victoria? The latter could obviously be achieved by running a service from the west/south to Victoria via Piccadilly.

Also, post-Hub, the Northern Liverpool stopper would have to be extended to Crewe via Wilmslow - not sure if that would work timing-wise.

Also may not work with the rolling stock plans if the plan is for Liverpool-Airport to be 319s and Crewe-Manchester to be CAF EMUs to keep slow accelerating 319s off the WCML.

 

[Greybeard33]

Did they say 4tph between the Airport and Victoria or 4tph between Piccadilly and Victoria? The latter could obviously be achieved by running a service from the west/south to Victoria via Piccadilly..

4tph between Piccadilly, Oxford Rd and Victoria. But there will be no provision for reversing services from the west at Piccadilly, except (perhaps) the ATW N Wales continuing to use the Mayfield loop. Conflicts between Piccadilly and Slade Lane are minimised if through services from Oxford Rd go to the Airport rather than Stockport. A stopper to Stockport has to cross both Fast lines at Slade Lane, and the 2tph (post Hub) Bolton to Hazel Grove and the EMT Liverpool to Norwich will have to do this anyway. Extending a Greenbank or Chester service to Rochdale might be another option, if it ran fast southbound from Picc to Stockport.

 

[lejog]

4tph between Piccadilly, Oxford Rd and Victoria. But there will be no provision for reversing services from the west at Piccadilly, except (perhaps) the ATW N Wales continuing to use the Mayfield loop. Conflicts between Piccadilly and Slade Lane are minimised if through services from Oxford Rd go to the Airport rather than Stockport. A stopper to Stockport has to cross both Fast lines at Slade Lane, and the 2tph (post Hub) Bolton to Hazel Grove and the EMT Liverpool to Norwich will have to do this anyway. Extending a Greenbank or Chester service to Rochdale might be another option, if it ran fast southbound from Picc to Stockport.

Sorry to pedantic but the Manchester Hub Study certainly doesn't go into detail about the capacity of the Ordsall Chord. Its merely one of the options at that stage and meets two of the requirements - to reroute TPE trains (2tph) and run a Calder Valley to Piccadilly and Man Airport service (1tph). I agree there was later publicity when the go-ahead for the Chord option was given saying capacity was 4tph, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen any concrete proposals for a fourth service.

Just out of interest the "modelled" timetable in the Study gave the following services to the Airport, it must be emphasised that this is only an example timetable but includes services from both Chester and Southport at the expense of the Cumbria service and the Piccadilly stopper. It appears that the stopping services were the two from Liverpool.

Ten tph from Manchester and beyond, two tph from Crewe and beyond:
• half hourly from Leeds via Huddersfield: one from Newcastle and one from Middlesbrough
• half hourly from Preston: one from Scotland and one from Blackpool
• half hourly stopping service from Liverpool
• half hourly from Crewe with one starting from Stoke-on-Trent
• hourly from Cleethorpes via Sheffield
• hourly from Southport via Salford Crescent
• hourly from Chester via Manchester
• hourly from Bradford and Halifax

 

[northwichcat]

There was a later CP5 HLOS produced by DfT which differed to the original Manchester Hub study. Notice the Manchester Hub one proposes Stoke-Crewe-Manchester Airport-Manchester which was dismissed in the draft stage of the most recent West Coast RUS.

 

[lejog]

There was a later CP5 HLOS produced by DfT which differed to the original Manchester Hub study. Notice the Manchester Hub one proposes Stoke-Crewe-Manchester Airport-Manchester which was dismissed in the draft stage of the most recent West Coast RUS.

As I said it was just an example timetable that Network Rail modelled for the study, it was never meant to be definitive. I do however think that the example timetable better meets the spirit of the requirements to improve connectivity than the planned timetable. Running airport trains from Piccadilly does nothing for connectivity within the North and running trains from both Cumbria and Scotland very little compared with services to Southport and Chester.

Yes the planned timetable meets the letter of the requirements e.g. while there was a requirement to run a service to the Airport from all principal rail corridors, Chester was bundled into a corridor with Liverpool.

I'm all in favour of ATW getting one of the Northern paths - hopefully the Piccadilly service or the Cumbria service.

 

[geoffk]

I've just posted on the Rochdale station thread that an Arriva spokesperson told us yesterday at a conference that the Blackburn - Rochdale - Vic service would run to the airport, in addition to the new Bradford service. Other reports are that Southport will lose its airport service!

So it all looks a bit up in the air and much is dependent on the Ordsall Chord, which is some way off. I think the slot should be given to ATW, offering an airport service from Warrington and Chester.

 

[lejog]

I've just posted on the Rochdale station thread that an Arriva spokesperson told us yesterday at a conference that the Blackburn - Rochdale - Vic service would run to the airport, in addition to the new Bradford service. Other reports are that Southport will lose its airport service!

So it all looks a bit up in the air and much is dependent on the Ordsall Chord, which is some way off. I think the slot should be given to ATW, offering an airport service from Warrington and Chester.

That if confirmed certainly puts the cat amongst the pigeons, whilst I know that there has been extensive lobbying from Lancashire councils for this service and it has always been a pretty obvious candidate for a 4th service on the Chord, it presumably means that Northern are bidding to keep the stopping service path by using it for a Blackburn service.

 

[northwichcat]

That if confirmed certainly puts the cat amongst the pigeons, whilst I know that there has been extensive lobbying from Lancashire councils for this service and it has always been a pretty obvious candidate for a 4th service on the Chord, it presumably means that Northern are bidding to keep the stopping service path by using it for a Blackburn service.

I think the second stopper (alongside the Crewe service) will need to be electric due to pathing constraints and electric trains having faster acceleration, that really only leaves Liverpool via Chat Moss as an option unless it remains as a stand-alone service.

 

[Greybeard33]

Sorry to pedantic but the Manchester Hub Study certainly doesn't go into detail about the capacity of the Ordsall Chord. Its merely one of the options at that stage and meets two of the requirements - to reroute TPE trains (2tph) and run a Calder Valley to Piccadilly and Man Airport service (1tph). I agree there was later publicity when the go-ahead for the Chord option was given saying capacity was 4tph, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen any concrete proposals for a fourth service.

Just out of interest the "modelled" timetable in the Study gave the following services to the Airport, it must be emphasised that this is only an example timetable but includes services from both Chester and Southport at the expense of the Cumbria service and the Piccadilly stopper. It appears that the stopping services were the two from Liverpool.

Allow me to be pedantic in return:

5.11.8 Manchester city centre
[snip]
The potential to unlock regeneration benefits through a
15 minute frequency service serving Manchester
Victoria, Salford Central, Manchester Oxford Road and
Manchester Piccadilly from Manchester Airport was
noted if platforms were reinstated on the Liverpool lines
at Salford Central. It is noted that stakeholders believe
Salford Central could unlock significant regeneration
benefit and this could form an aspect of the further
feasibility.

5.11.9 Opportunities for service improvements
[snip]
• In Option 2 the ability exists to improve journeys to
Manchester city centre by operating services that call at
Manchester Victoria, Manchester Oxford Road and
Manchester Piccadilly on the way to Manchester
Airport. Indeed if platforms were provided on the
Liverpool lines at Salford Central this station could be
included.

Chapter 8: Opportunities for service improvements from the preferred option
8.3 Key commuter corridors
[snip]
• Manchester Loop;
- 15 minute pattern Manchester Victoria – Oxford
Road – Manchester Piccadilly – Manchester
Airport
- potential to include Salford Central if Liverpool
line platforms provided
- potential for a station at Eastlands with services
working through Manchester Victoria.

And from the Northern RUS (2011)

4. Gaps and options
Gap 9: Strategic connectivity across
the north of England
[snip]
The preferred solution (option 2 in the Study)
delivers high value for money and provides the
opportunity for faster, more frequent and more
reliable services, freeing up capacity and providing
for future growth in demand. It will:
[snip]
- introduce 15-minute frequency services between
Manchester Victoria, Manchester Oxford Road,
Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport,
improving end-to-end journey times by making
Manchester city centre more accessible by rail

I've just posted on the Rochdale station thread that an Arriva spokesperson told us yesterday at a conference that the Blackburn - Rochdale - Vic service would run to the airport, in addition to the new Bradford service. Other reports are that Southport will lose its airport service!

So it all looks a bit up in the air and much is dependent on the Ordsall Chord, which is some way off. I think the slot should be given to ATW, offering an airport service from Warrington and Chester.

That if confirmed certainly puts the cat amongst the pigeons, whilst I know that there has been extensive lobbying from Lancashire councils for this service and it has always been a pretty obvious candidate for a 4th service on the Chord, it presumably means that Northern are bidding to keep the stopping service path by using it for a Blackburn service.

Compared with the original modelled timetable, it appears that the plan is that there will still be 10tph from the Airport to Picc, but the Chester and Southport services will be replaced by the Cumbria and Blackburn via Todmorden services. One of the Liverpools will be semi-fast via the CLC instead of a Chat Moss stopper. The study envisaged that the Cumbria services would remain portion-worked with the Blackpools (Lancashire triangle electrification had not yet been authorised) and did not anticipate the Todmorden Chord.

I think the second stopper (alongside the Crewe service) will need to be electric due to pathing constraints and electric trains having faster acceleration, that really only leaves Liverpool via Chat Moss as an option unless it remains as a stand-alone service.

No, there will not be a path for a separate Crewe service terminating at Picc - it will have to be joined to the Liverpool stopper if it is to be 319-operated. The Blackburn service will have to be the other Airport stopper - not sure the acceleration of a 150 is much worse than a 319.

 

[northwichcat]

No, there will not be a path for a separate Crewe service terminating at Picc - it will have to be joined to the Liverpool stopper if it is to be 319-operated. The Blackburn service will have to be the other Airport stopper - not sure the acceleration of a 150 is much worse than a 319.

Isn't that only if ATW run to the Airport?

Northern bidders were asked to allow for an hourly path for either ATW to run to Victoria and terminate there or to run to the Airport. It sounds like Arriva's bid for Northern left them with a path to Victoria but across the border they are looking to see if there's an alternative.

 

[lejog]

Allow me to be pedantic in return:

I apologize profusely Approaching senility is my only excuse.

Compared with the original modelled timetable, it appears that the plan is that there will still be 10tph from the Airport to Picc, but the Chester and Southport services will be replaced by the Cumbria and Blackburn via Todmorden services. One of the Liverpools will be semi-fast via the CLC instead of a Chat Moss stopper. The study envisaged that the Cumbria services would remain portion-worked with the Blackpools (Lancashire triangle electrification had not yet been authorised) and did not anticipate the Todmorden Chord.

No, there will not be a path for a separate Crewe service terminating at Picc - it will have to be joined to the Liverpool stopper if it is to be 319-operated. The Blackburn service will have to be the other Airport stopper - not sure the acceleration of a 150 is much worse than a 319.

Indeed if Northern are proposing a service from Blackburn, then presumably they have a planned timetable. If the stoppers really need to be electric services couldn't they be the Chat Moss and Blackpool services? (Or am I having another senior moment?) The Bradford service isn't planned until Dec 2019, if the the Blackburn service starts then Northern may stretch to a 156/158/170.

 

[Greybeard33]

Isn't that only if ATW run to the Airport?

Northern bidders were asked to allow for an hourly path for either ATW to run to Victoria and terminate there or to run to the Airport. It sounds like Arriva's bid for Northern left them with a path to Victoria but across the border they are looking to see if there's an alternative.

I believe the fourth platform was supposed to allow 10tph from the Airport to Piccadilly. The 10 will be 2 North TPE, 1 Scotland, 1 Cleethorpes, 1 Liverpool via CLC, 1 Liverpool via Chat Moss, 1 Cumbria, 1 Blackpool, 1 Bradford and 1 Blackburn(?) - all through services at Picc.

I suspect, as you say, that the North Wales service may be diverted to Victoria post-Hub, rather than continuing to terminate at Piccadilly. A Piccadilly path would mean that there would be 17tph (off peak) through the Castlefield corridor (4tph CLC, 3tph Chat Moss (N Wales, Cumbria & Liverpool stopper), 4tph Bolton (2 Airport, 2 Hazel Grove), 4tph Ordsall Chord, plus 2tph Trafford Park freights). However Joseph_Locke has posted on the Ordsall Chord thread:

On the contrary my industry colleague; I was under the impression that Northern Hub and Electrification configuration state seven assumed a three minute planning headway? Professionally, I am not convinced that 16 services per hour is achievable with a three minute technical headway (given that at least one of those sixteen services is of such a length that it occupies platforms at Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate simultaneously )

I apologize profusely Approaching senility is my only excuse.

Indeed if Northern are proposing a service from Blackburn, then presumably they have a planned timetable. If the stoppers really need to be electric services couldn't they be the Chat Moss and Blackpool services? (Or am I having another senior moment?) The Bradford service isn't planned until Dec 2019, if the the Blackburn service starts then Northern may stretch to a 156/158/170.

No need for apologies - senility has already arrived in my case!

Yes, it might be an option for the Blackpool service to stop at all stations between the Airport and Picc. I had assumed that Northern would want to keep it semi-fast, since it will be branded Northern Connect (the TPE Blackpool currently stops at Heald Green only).

 

[northwichcat]

I believe the fourth platform was supposed to allow 10tph from the Airport to Piccadilly. The 10 will be 2 North TPE, 1 Scotland, 1 Cleethorpes, 1 Liverpool via CLC, 1 Liverpool via Chat Moss, 1 Cumbria, 1 Blackpool, 1 Bradford and 1 Blackburn - all through services at Picc.

Just thinking about this while I imagine they want the Blackpool/Cumbria-Airport services to be non-stop between Piccadilly and the Airport, could one of them finish up running all/most stops to Crewe after the Airport, with the Liverpool via Chat Moss service stopping at all stops between the Airport and Piccadilly?

 

[geoffk]

Originally Posted by Greybeard33 View Post
I believe the fourth platform was supposed to allow 10tph from the Airport to Piccadilly. The 10 will be 2 North TPE, 1 Scotland, 1 Cleethorpes, 1 Liverpool via CLC, 1 Liverpool via Chat Moss, 1 Cumbria, 1 Blackpool, 1 Bradford and 1 Blackburn - all through services at Picc.

If the "1 Cumbria" means Blackpool or Windermere, that's a big increase in service from what they have now. I assume these will go via Wigan to compensate in part for the loss of a Southport service as the Scottish service will revert to running via Bolton. That means three trains an hour from Preston to the Airport, two from Rochdale but none from Chester.

Also, service patterns need to take account of electrification, given that we are not having any bi-mode trains (or are we?). The Bradford and Blackburn will be diesel for the foreseeable future, as will the Cleethorpes and the Liverpool via CLC, plus however many Barrow trains there are.

 

[northwichcat]

If the "1 Cumbria" means Blackpool or Windermere, that's a big increase in service from what they have now.

Barrow not Blackpool and yes hourly. Northern Connect will take over the path currently used by TPE between Manchester and Preston via Wigan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just thinking about this while I imagine they want the Blackpool/Cumbria-Airport services to be non-stop between Piccadilly and the Airport, could one of them finish up running all/most stops to Crewe after the Airport, with the Liverpool via Chat Moss service stopping at all stops between the Airport and Piccadilly?

Does that mean that Heald Green will miss out on the Blackpool service. There are currently services departing from Heald Green at xx33, some of which are six-car sets that split at Preston.

Will this be the end for direct Heald Green to Windermere services that friends of my wife have used (0933 departure) for quite some time, in the warmer months of the year.

 

[geoffk]

Yes I meant Barrow, sorry. So they will run via Chat Moss and Golborne Jn. A lot of diesel services under the wires.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes I meant Barrow, sorry. So they will run via Chat Moss and Golborne Jn. A lot of diesel services under the wires.

Manchester-Bolton-Preston will also be electric by the time they start.

 

[lejog]

Yes I meant Barrow, sorry. So they will run via Chat Moss and Golborne Jn. A lot of diesel services under the wires.

Yes, isn't that 4 diesels out of 7 trains running into Manchester on the Chat Moss line? You can't have good connectivity on a part electrified network without having diesels running under the wires.

 

[Philip]

If there are going to be no services from the Airport that terminate at Piccadilly, where will the semi-fast from Crewe via the Airport end up going to?

 

[The Prisoner]

Living in Chester it is 40 minutes or so to drive to Manchester Airport (door to door motorway). The ATW route takes a line that goes nowhere near the Airport...meaning that you pass 5-10 or so miles to the north through Newton ke Willows etc, have to go into Central Manchester and then head back through Heald Green. Takes something like an hour longer by train because of that.

The Mid-Cheshire line passes within a few miles of the Airport - think Ashley is the nearest station, but I doubt many use it for that purpose.

Looking at Holyhead/Llandudno to Manchester services I don't know what the %age of flow Chester and points east is responsible for, but I would imagine it is quite high, and few from those stations would consider the circular/time consuming route that ATW have to take as being reasonable to get to the Airport. Therefore you are looking at Rhyl, Bangor etc....is there an hourly volume demand to get to the Airport from there? Probably not.

 

[Class 170101]

No, there will not be a path for a separate Crewe service terminating at Picc - it will have to be joined to the Liverpool stopper if it is to be 319-operated. The Blackburn service will have to be the other Airport stopper - not sure the acceleration of a 150 is much worse than a 319.

Class 319s are better accelerating than 15x units.

 

[Greybeard33]

Just thinking about this while I imagine they want the Blackpool/Cumbria-Airport services to be non-stop between Piccadilly and the Airport, could one of them finish up running all/most stops to Crewe after the Airport, with the Liverpool via Chat Moss service stopping at all stops between the Airport and Piccadilly?

Well, that would make Crewe-Airport a Northern Connect service, but it is not shown as such on Arriva's Northern Connect map. That is why I thought it would have to be joined to either the Liverpool-Airport stopper or the Blackburn-Airport - and the latter would mean a lot of undesirable diesel mileage under the wires.

Yes, isn't that 4 diesels out of 7 trains running into Manchester on the Chat Moss line? You can't have good connectivity on a part electrified network without having diesels running under the wires.

The Liverpool-Bradford service will of course be diesel, as will the Chester-Bradford and N Wales-Manchester. The Barrow-Airport will have to be diesel, but in some hours the Windermere-Airport could become electric once the branch is wired. The two TPEs will become bi-modes, so electric under the wires, and the Liverpool-Airport will remain electric. The interactive map says a minimum of 8 Barrows/day versus 4 Windermeres, so maybe eventually an average of only 3.67 out of 7 diesel on the Chat Moss, assuming the Windermere wiring happens before the end of the franchises.

 

[daodao]

Living in Chester it is 40 minutes or so to drive to Manchester Airport (door to door motorway). The ATW route takes a line that goes nowhere near the Airport...meaning that you pass 5-10 or so miles to the north through Newton ke Willows etc, have to go into Central Manchester and then head back through Heald Green. Takes something like an hour longer by train because of that.

The Mid-Cheshire line passes within a few miles of the Airport - think Ashley is the nearest station, but I doubt many use it for that purpose.

Looking at Holyhead/Llandudno to Manchester services I don't know what the %age of flow Chester and points east is responsible for, but I would imagine it is quite high, and few from those stations would consider the circular/time consuming route that ATW have to take as being reasonable to get to the Airport. Therefore you are looking at Rhyl, Bangor etc....is there an hourly volume demand to get to the Airport from there? Probably not.

I agree. The A55/M56 also makes it very quick to travel from most places on the N Wales coast direct to M/c Airport by car, e.g. approximately 75 minutes to Llandudno Junction.

There have been ideas for a link from the Mid Cheshire line to the airport to facilitate direct Chester-M/c Airport trains, but this would be expensive and destroy attractive green belt near Ashley. Unfortunately, this alignment is also proposed for the white elephant of a direct HS2 route into M/c.

 

[Welshman]

Looking at Holyhead/Llandudno to Manchester services I don't know what the %age of flow Chester and points east is responsible for, but I would imagine it is quite high, and few from those stations would consider the circular/time consuming route that ATW have to take as being reasonable to get to the Airport. Therefore you are looking at Rhyl, Bangor etc....is there an hourly volume demand to get to the Airport from there? Probably not.

Were there such a demand, I would have thought an enterprising coach operator would have stepped-in, considering how direct and easy such a journey would be via the A55 and M56.

 

[northwichcat]

Well, that would make Crewe-Airport a Northern Connect service, but it is not shown as such on Arriva's Northern Connect map. That is why I thought it would have to be joined to either the Liverpool-Airport stopper or the Blackburn-Airport - and the latter would mean a lot of undesirable diesel mileage under the wires.

There's been a lack of a mention of Crewe in anything to do with the new franchise, other than it being mentioned in a Rail Journal report as a route which is getting new CAF EMUs. Maybe Arriva were still looking at more than one option at the time the franchise was announced?