No Welsh Trains to Manchester Airport (Now approved until December 2017)

[northwichcat]

I assumed that as there were only Manchester Airport to Newcastle and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough services on the North Transpennine TPE routes, the replacement of the Newcastle service by a York one would have seen exactly the same number of services.

Or is it the case that there are now more services on the York replacement service than there were on the original Newcastle service?

The number of Airport to York services is the same but the number of services operating by Manchester and Leeds has increased. Therefore, it is now more imperative that the Airport to York services are not delayed as a delayed service is now much more likely to cause a later service to be delayed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem is Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds is more congested so a delay on the Manchester Airport to York service now has a greater knock on effect than a delay on the old Manchester Airport to Newcastle service.

Does this delay scenario ever occur because of a delayed Northern Rail Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield service?

 

[geoffk]

They have won an appeal for paths from Network Rail.
Do you have a source for that?

Information is from an ATW spokesperson.

 

[northwichcat]

They have won an appeal for paths from Network Rail.
Do you have a source for that?

Information is from an ATW spokesperson.

It sounds like he's jumped the gun considering the ATW application is showing on the Network Rail document as being under consultation until 3rd December.

As has been discussed already in this thread based on where passengers using Manchester Airport come from extending the North Wales service to the Airport is more logical than enhancing Airport to Cumbria/Yorkshire services. Network Rail should really be questioning whether the Airport to York service needs to continue to originate from the Airport if there is no path for an Airport to Chester/North Wales services, regarding than accepting TPE's concerns about more services making delays more probable.

I actually wonder what the Warrington to Airport flow is like, surely at present TPE would make the most off that flow but if ATW introduce regular Warrington to Airport services that would almost certainly reduce TPE's takings.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It sounds like he's jumped the gun considering the ATW application is showing on the Network Rail document as being under consultation until 3rd December.

It's in the text of the application I quoted above.

At a Timetabling Panel Hearing of the Access Disputes Committee on 6th October 2015, the Panel found that Arriva Trains Wales was entitled to have its Access Proposal for the December 2015 Timetable accepted by Network Rail,

I don't know who the Disputes Panel is or what its powers are, but it seems to have overruled the Network Rail rejection of the previous application.

 

[The Planner]

Look here for the joy that is ADC...

Access Disputes

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know who the Disputes Panel is or what its powers are, but it seems to have overruled the Network Rail rejection of the previous application.

the Panel did not direct Network Rail to accommodate the Train Slots in the December 2015 Timetable but did direct Network Rail to accommodate the Train Slots in the May 2016 Timetable, again subject to the normal processes of the Network Code. This application is for track access rights to commence from May 2016

To me that reads as conditional not unconditional.

Hopefully some common sense is applied and no decision is made until the winning Northern bids is unveiled, as if the winning bidder has left a path available for an ATW service to the Airport that should surely guarantee the path long term opposed to just up until the next recast.

 

[The Planner]

That says to me that ATW have been awarded contingent rights to the paths up to a point in time. ie: if they fit they can have them but if/when a more strategic need for them (ie Northern Hub) comes along then they may lose them under the decision criteria taken for timetables.

 

[Class 170101]

That says to me that ATW have been awarded contingent rights to the paths up to a point in time. ie: if they fit they can have them but if/when a more strategic need for them (ie Northern Hub) comes along then they may lose them under the decision criteria taken for timetables.

Or perhaps be moved around / last on the 'graph'?

 

[D1009]

Does this delay scenario ever occur because of a delayed Northern Rail Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield service?

I'd hazard a guess that there is more delay caused to the Northern service by the TPE service than the other way round.

 

[lejog]

That says to me that ATW have been awarded contingent rights to the paths up to a point in time. ie: if they fit they can have them but if/when a more strategic need for them (ie Northern Hub) comes along then they may lose them under the decision criteria taken for timetables.

I would like to point out that the Northern Hub requirements, based on the the benefits to the northern economy, not the internal railway benefits argued in this thread, were for at least 1tph from each major "corridor" into Manchester running to the airport with 2tph from the Huddersfield-Leeds corridor.

This would have given the Chester corridor 1tph to the Airport, presumably in practice the North Wales service.

The problem seems to be that the DfT/franchises/Network Rail have decided there should be services to the airport from Scotland, Blackpool, Windermere and Barrow with the result that the Preston "corridor" gets nearly 3tph rather than 1tph.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Look here for the joy that is ADC...

Access Disputes

From experience - not getting to this panel is an achievement !

There is a complex arrangement to wicket roll in , advance , through the ORR / NR and DfT trilateral meetings (which until recently I used to attend) -

NR has a SOAR panel - a "Sale of Access Rights" star forum , which in my personal view , tends to slow things down dramatically.

Of course - all this process just adds delay , costs money , and really does not improve things from a customer point of view. Now retired , I look back with horror at the present process , and admire the days of BR when you could usually arrange new timetables and trains with (a) a simple meeting (b) A phone call to the planners.

 

[WatcherZero]

Newspaper article on the appeal success.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/direct-north-wales-manchester-airport-10463467

 

[Phil from Mon]

Newspaper article on the appeal success.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/direct-north-wales-manchester-airport-10463467

Two things from that report.

1. Rail Minister Claire Perry has "promised" direct trains from North Wales to Liverpool Airport after the Halton Chord "opens in 2018" (my quotes)
2. ATW have an open consultation on the needs for trains to Manchester Airport, but no address or email for it is given

Phil

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Two things from that report.
1. Rail Minister Claire Perry has "promised" direct trains from North Wales to Liverpool Airport after the Halton Chord "opens in 2018" (my quotes)
Phil

Actually, the Minister's quote says North Wales to Liverpool, not Liverpool Airport.

Ms Perry did not refer to the blocking of ATW’s planned services last May, but promised that Wales would get direct trains to Liverpool after a short connecting track at Halton, Cheshire, is upgraded in 2018.
The route will pass the station near Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

There is a quote that North Wales is "particularly poorly connected by rail to international airports".
Has she forgotten the hourly Cambrian/Holyhead-Birmingham International?
But the statistic that Manchester Airport carries more Welsh international business travel (22%) than any other (including Heathrow) is telling.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Actually, the Minister's quote says North Wales to Liverpool, not Liverpool Airport.

There is a quote that North Wales is "particularly poorly connected by rail to international airports".

Has she forgotten the hourly Cambrian/Holyhead-Birmingham International?
But the statistic that Manchester Airport carries more Welsh international business travel (22%) than any other (including Heathrow) is telling.

I wouldn't describe north Wales as being well connected to Birmingham personally. The Holyhead-Birmingham International service you speak of goes via Wrexham and Shrewsbury and you can sometimes get to Birmingham faster by changing at both Chester and Crewe.

As for the Halton Chord, I'd like to see the current 2hourly stopper up the marches from Cardiff (currently to Holyhead) diverted to Liverpool and doubled to hourly. North Wales then to have Holyhead/Llandudno - Crewe/Manchester services (the Crewe services ideally extending to Birmingham, but that might require electrification of the north Wales line). Holyhead-Cardiff to instead be served by just 3 trains each way per day, but all expresses (like original Gerald) rather than the current 2hourly stoppers.

 

[craigybagel]

Holyhead-Cardiff to instead be served by just 3 trains each way per day, but all expresses (like original Gerald) rather than the current 2hourly stoppers.

Not going to happen. As sensible as it may be, the WAG seem to want more North Wales - Cardiff trains, not less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not going to happen. As sensible as it may be, the WAG seem to want more North Wales - Cardiff trains, not less.

Which is because of their political desires (wishing to ape Scotland), not because of any sense of practicality.

Scotland is in effect a standalone country - it has its own legal system and an economy based around the Central Belt, primarily Glasgow and Edinburgh. It also has a strong national identity.

Wales, by contrast, has a strong national identity, but has a divided economy, and that division is not purely logical, it's also divided by a load of mountains (north to mid Wales), or a load of sheep (mid to south Wales). The economy of north Wales is strongly bound to Chester, Liverpool, Manchester and surrounds, and to a lesser extent Birmingham. The economy of mid Wales is strongly bound to Shrewsbury and Birmingham. That of South Wales is strongly bound to Cardiff and Bristol.

If anything, the old split of 3 TOCs made more sense than ATW does - but even if ATW has to exist (it certainly doesn't do any harm to work like that) it needs to provide services that tally with requirements, not political ends. Demand from North Wales to Cardiff will *always* be low - it simply isn't an association in business terms.

 

[craigybagel]

Which is because of their political desires (wishing to ape Scotland), not because of any sense of practicality.

Scotland is in effect a standalone country - it has its own legal system and an economy based around the Central Belt, primarily Glasgow and Edinburgh. It also has a strong national identity.

Wales, by contrast, has a strong national identity, but has a divided economy, and that division is not purely logical, it's also divided by a load of mountains (north to mid Wales), or a load of sheep (mid to south Wales). The economy of north Wales is strongly bound to Chester, Liverpool, Manchester and surrounds, and to a lesser extent Birmingham. The economy of mid Wales is strongly bound to Shrewsbury and Birmingham. That of South Wales is strongly bound to Cardiff and Bristol.

If anything, the old split of 3 TOCs made more sense than ATW does - but even if ATW has to exist (it certainly doesn't do any harm to work like that) it needs to provide services that tally with requirements, not political ends. Demand from North Wales to Cardiff will *always* be low - it simply isn't an association in business terms.

Indeed, but what the WAG says, gos. I'd be amazed if hourly Cardiff-Holyhead isn't a requirement in the next franchise.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Indeed, but what the WAG says, gos. I'd be amazed if hourly Cardiff-Holyhead isn't a requirement in the next franchise.

WAG also want north Wales electrification too don't they, and they almost certainly won't get that if they insist on most north Wales coast services going to Wrexham (and onto Cardiff/Birmingham).

 

[Flaps64]

Train passengers in north Wales are a step closer to having more direct services to Manchester Airport, Arriva Trains Wales has said.
It wants to increase the number of direct trains from north Wales to and from the airport from 17 to 57 weekly.
It said a decision at the industry's Access Disputes Committee means it can "enter the next stage of the process".
An application for permission must now be made to the Office of Rail and Road.
Ian Bullock, managing director of ATW said: "This service extension will bring significant benefits to the economy of north Wales."

BBC NEWS

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed, but what the WAG says, gos. I'd be amazed if hourly Cardiff-Holyhead isn't a requirement in the next franchise.

The crowds of travellers were yet again missing on the 0715 from Cardiff today barely 5 people including me stayed on from south of Chester. There's some demand at some times from what I see but there's no market there to justify 2 hourly let alone hourly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which is because of their political desires (wishing to ape Scotland), not because of any sense of practicality.

Scotland is in effect a standalone country - it has its own legal system and an economy based around the Central Belt, primarily Glasgow and Edinburgh. It also has a strong national identity.

Wales, by contrast, has a strong national identity, but has a divided economy, and that division is not purely logical, it's also divided by a load of mountains (north to mid Wales), or a load of sheep (mid to south Wales). The economy of north Wales is strongly bound to Chester, Liverpool, Manchester and surrounds, and to a lesser extent Birmingham. The economy of mid Wales is strongly bound to Shrewsbury and Birmingham. That of South Wales is strongly bound to Cardiff and Bristol.

If anything, the old split of 3 TOCs made more sense than ATW does - but even if ATW has to exist (it certainly doesn't do any harm to work like that) it needs to provide services that tally with requirements, not political ends. Demand from North Wales to Cardiff will *always* be low - it simply isn't an association in business terms.

If it's a choice between having an all Wales franchise that stops at Chester/Shrewsbury or going back to how it was take us back and put actual passenger demand first.

 

[Class 170101]

The problem seems to be that the DfT/franchises/Network Rail have decided there should be services to the airport from Scotland, Blackpool, Windermere and Barrow with the result that the Preston "corridor" gets nearly 3tph rather than 1tph.

Do Barrow and Windermere seriously generate enough demand each to warrant two paths per hour between them to Manchester Airport?

Either both should be two hourly (hourly therefore from Preston) or a joined up train from Preston to ManchesterAirport.

 

[thealexweb]

Do Barrow and Windermere seriously generate enough demand each to warrant two paths per hour between them to Manchester Airport?

Either both should be two hourly (hourly therefore from Preston) or a joined up train from Preston to ManchesterAirport.

There will be only two trains to Windermere per day from Manchester Airport, and the same frequency in the other direction. A bi-hourly Windermere service is what existed up until the December 2007 timetable change.

 

[Groningen]

One can not run every train from Wales to Manchester airport. From the travelplanner i see that from Cardiff there is only 1 change necessary at Wilmslow with a wait of 9 minutes. That train from Cardiff is going to Manchester, but not via the airport.

 

[krus_aragon]

One can not run every train from Wales to Manchester airport. From the travelplanner i see that from Cardiff there is only 1 change necessary at Wilmslow with a wait of 9 minutes. That train from Cardiff is going to Manchester, but not via the airport.

The main consideration here is whether trains from North Wales (Llandudno) operate through to the airport, rather than South Wales services.

 

[northwichcat]

There will be only two trains to Windermere per day from Manchester Airport, and the same frequency in the other direction. A bi-hourly Windermere service is what existed up until the December 2007 timetable change.

Indeed. I think Class 170101 missed that 4 places were named and 3 paths were mentioned meaning they won't all get a service every hour.

 

[Class 170101]

Indeed. I think Class 170101 missed that 4 places were named and 3 paths were mentioned meaning they won't all get a service every hour.

No I didn't miss that four places were named.

Even with three paths per hour
Blackpool 1tph
Scotland 1tph - however its either serving Edinburgh and Glasgow every two hours or they split / join at Carlisle
Barrow / Windermere either 1 path per hour split / join at Preston or both get a path every two hours
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There will be only two trains to Windermere per day from Manchester Airport, and the same frequency in the other direction. A bi-hourly Windermere service is what existed up until the December 2007 timetable change.

How many from Barrow to Manchester Airport though? More services to the Airport than Windermere?

I would have thought only a two hourly service to each destination would be sufficient.

 

[northwichcat]

No I didn't miss that four places were named.

Even with three paths per hour
Blackpool 1tph
Scotland 1tph - however its either serving Edinburgh and Glasgow every two hours or they split / join at Carlisle
Barrow / Windermere either 1 path per hour split / join at Preston or both get a path every two hours

What I said is you missed that it's 4 places and 3 paths (i.e. not all places every hour) after you said "Do Barrow and Windermere seriously generate enough demand each to warrant two paths per hour between them to Manchester Airport?"

Barrow and Windermere have never had 2tph to the Airport between them and there have been no plans to introduce that level of service.

 

[northwichcat]

Network Rail have said they do not support ATW's plan for additional Airport services: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/20766/nr-rep-plan.pdf

According to TfGM ATW have now proposed taking over one of Northern's slots which will mean the all-stops service would go and one of the longer distance services would stop at all stations between Piccadilly and the Airport but they do not have the support of TfGM to do that.