Nominations for the fastest verified recorded speed in a Mk 1??

[kermit]

Sorry, should have started a new thread on this instead of burying my question in the ETH thread....

I'd be fascinated to know!

 

[Strathclyder]

The Mk1 based Class 432 (4-REPs) managed to exceed 100 mph on a few occasions if I'm not entirely mistaken, due to their high power output (3200 HP).

 

[AM9]

The Mk1 based Class 432 (4-REPs) managed to exceed 100 mph on a few occasions if I'm not entirely mistaken, due to their high power output (3200 HP).

I remember (probably sometime in the '70s), that some high speed tests were conducted with class 86s and a class 309, (the Clactons were built in MKI coach bodies). The tests were conducted on the WCML near Cheddington. The 309 with some temporary glass fibre streamlining fitted, achieved a top speed of 109mph.

 

[contrex]

Prior to the Mk3 DVTs being introduced, there were Mark 1 BGs (code: NHA) running at 110 mph on the WCML in Mk 3 sets, they had B4 bogies specially maintained.

 

[CosherB]

i can't wait to start reading about rumours and hyperbole that will inevitably follow ..... any offers above 125 mph?! :roll:

 

[contrex]

Of course there was LNER Gresley stock that ran at 125.88 mph behind Mallard on 3 July 1938.

 

[Juniper Driver]

i can't wait to start reading about rumours and hyperbole that will inevitably follow ..... any offers above 125 mph?! :roll:

Probably about 150mph.

 

[jp4712]

Hmm, do I recall that the Peak that was used for the famous nuclear flask test in 1984 was tweaked to go faster than usual? If so then the three (I think it was three) Mk1s behind it have a claim, although it would've taken a brave version of O. S. Nock to sit on board looking out for quarter mile posts...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm sure one or two 4Ceps did over a ton at some point between Tonbridge and Ashford....

 

[Ash Bridge]

Was there a mk1 test vehicle included in the 1973 prototype HST high speed test runs?

 

[O L Leigh]

Test cars 5 and 8 and lab coach 6 "Prometheus" (all Mk1s) were used in the APT-P power car test train together with either one or two prototype HST power cars at speeds of up to 125mph. (Click)

Lab coaches 1 and 6 also ran at up to 125mph on the northern half of the WCML as part of a temporary HST formation made up of redundant restaurant cars to test the Brecknell Willis high-speed pantograph. (Click)

It's possible that there was a Mk1 buffet car in the prototype HST formation when it set the world speed record for diesel traction of 143mph near Northallerton in June 1973. For whatever reason the prototype Mk3 buffet car didn't appear at the same time as the rest of the formation and a Mk1 buffet was painted into the prototype HST livery, fitted with Mk3 bogies and inserted into the formation as a stopgap. There are certainly photos of it still in the set while under test on the ECML during that month although I can't seem to find any other confirmation. Although more impressive is that the record breaking formation may have also included lab coach 3 which is an ex-LMS dynamometer car. (Click)

O L Leigh

 

[kermit]

Test cars 5 and 8 and lab coach 6 "Prometheus" (all Mk1s) were used in the APT-P power car test train together with either one or two prototype HST power cars at speeds of up to 125mph. (Click)

Lab coaches 1 and 6 also ran at up to 125mph on the northern half of the WCML as part of a temporary HST formation made up of redundant restaurant cars to test the Brecknell Willis high-speed pantograph. (Click)

It's possible that there was a Mk1 buffet car in the prototype HST formation when it set the world speed record for diesel traction of 143mph near Northallerton in June 1973. For whatever reason the prototype Mk3 buffet car didn't appear at the same time as the rest of the formation and a Mk1 buffet was painted into the prototype HST livery, fitted with Mk3 bogies and inserted into the formation as a stopgap. There are certainly photos of it still in the set while under test on the ECML during that month although I can't seem to find any other confirmation. Although more impressive is that the record breaking formation may have also included lab coach 3 which is an ex-LMS dynamometer car. (Click)

O L Leigh

Thanks for a very comprehensive and helpful response! 143 mph in a Mk 1 sounds a bit worrying, but maybe Mk 3 bogies helped with the ride. I assume it just wouldn't be allowed these days, as the performance of the Mk 1 in the event of a crash would be lamentable......

 

[ac6000cw]

Thanks for a very comprehensive and helpful response! 143 mph in a Mk 1 sounds a bit worrying, but maybe Mk 3 bogies helped with the ride.

Doing the head-out-of-the-window bit might have been fun

As for pushing the envelope, the state of the track after the French world rail speed record runs in 1955 (B-B electric loco + three carriages at 206 mph) tells you all you need to know about how close to the edge they were....

I assume it just wouldn't be allowed these days, as the performance of the Mk 1 in the event of a crash would be lamentable......

Rail accidents are so rare that crashworthiness is barely worth worrying about - railway safety has always been 99% about primary safety (preventing accidents). The high-speed test runs with new designs of rolling stock are part of that 'primary safety' development/assessment process.

 

[jopsuk]

I guess there was also a bit of "test pilot" attitude about those working on a development train pushing the boundaries?

 

[AM9]

Doing the head-out-of-the-window bit might have been fun

As for pushing the envelope, the state of the track after the French world rail speed record runs in 1955 (B-B electric loco + three carriages at 206 mph) tells you all you need to know about how close to the edge they were....

Rail accidents are so rare that crashworthiness is barely worth worrying about - railway safety has always been 99% about primary safety (preventing accidents). The high-speed test runs with new designs of rolling stock are part of that 'primary safety' development/assessment process.

That's OK until something like Grayrigg happens. If that Pendolino hadn't got such good crashworthyness the rail industry would have been slaughtered by the media and the politicians.

A far worse situation is in the US where any passenger train running faster than 125mph must be built like a battering ram, as is the case with the Acela sets. They chose that rather than the more scientific route practiced in Europe where the rail industry has taken cues from road vehicle design.

 

[Monty]

i can't wait to start reading about rumours and hyperbole that will inevitably follow ..... any offers above 125 mph?! :roll:

Was there not a Mk1 that ran with the prototype HST for a while? Surely that had to be a contender?

EDIT: O L Leigh beat me to it.

 

[O L Leigh]

Thanks for a very comprehensive and helpful response! 143 mph in a Mk 1 sounds a bit worrying, but maybe Mk 3 bogies helped with the ride. I assume it just wouldn't be allowed these days, as the performance of the Mk 1 in the event of a crash would be lamentable......

Recent formations of the NMT have been a real hotch-potch of Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 vehicles. I'm not sure whether or not that would limit the speed of the formation to 100mph, but it's just possible that there are still Mk1s out there running at up to 125mph.

O L Leigh

 

[ac6000cw]

That's OK until something like Grayrigg happens. If that Pendolino hadn't got such good crashworthyness the rail industry would have been slaughtered by the media and the politicians.

My comment was in the context of someone making a decision to ride on a train on the basis of the crashworthiness of the rolling stock. Developmental testing always carries some risks of the 'unknown', so one proceeds cautiously and in stages towards the end target.

A far worse situation is in the US where any passenger train running faster than 125mph must be built like a battering ram, as is the case with the Acela sets. They chose that rather than the more scientific route practiced in Europe where the rail industry has taken cues from road vehicle design.

They're actually re-evaluating that at the moment (at least for lines that don't carry significant freight traffic and have better highway crossing protection e.g. the NE Corridor), partly because it would allow them to buy/use more-or-less off the shelf train designs from elsewhere (= cheaper & lighter). The criticism levelled at the Acela design probably contributed to this.....

I fully agree that improving crashworthiness by clever engineering design is a laudable aim (which is what has actually happened over time - integral tubes make lighter, stronger and stiffer vehicles than the underframe+non-structural body designs of old - the improved crashworthiness has largely been a by-product of that design evolution).

 

[O L Leigh]

There's a bit of topic drift going on here, and I'm about to nothing to address that.

The problem in the US is that freight movements are extremely large and heavy and would completely destroy any European or Asian mainline passenger stock in a collision. Some lines have bought "off the shelf" stock from Europe including Desiro DMUs from Siemens, but these are classified by the Americans as light rail and have to run on segregated tracks.

O L Leigh

 

[Yew]

A Mk1 was used in the BREL international train, which was used to test the T4 bogies intended for the Mk4's. I imagine if it was used for speed runs, it was probably rebogied with BT10's or something to help it along.

 

[O L Leigh]

Good call. That formation was tested on the ECML at speeds of up to 145mph. (Click).

Getting close to the 150mph that CosherB and Juniper Driver suggested would be hyperbole. Not sure we'll get much closer than that, though.

O L Leigh

 

[contrex]

As for pushing the envelope, the state of the track after the French world rail speed record runs in 1955 (B-B electric loco + three carriages at 206 mph) tells you all you need to know about how close to the edge they were....

The envelope was pushed another way as well. I believe the contact wire needed replacing. I have seen a film clip of the run and there seemed to be continuous arcing. Mobile substations were used to increase the current available and the voltage was increased from 1500 V to 1900 V DC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Mk1 based Class 432 (4-REPs) managed to exceed 100 mph on a few occasions if I'm not entirely mistaken, due to their high power output (3200 HP).

In 1967 or 68 I read an account in Modern Railways of a run where 103/105 was reached at Roundwood. A bit unofficial, I believe.

 

[ac6000cw]

I guess there was also a bit of "test pilot" attitude about those working on a development train pushing the boundaries?

Yes, I'm sure there was in the 1950's - it was only 10 years after WWII (amazing in the context of how long it seems to take to do anything substantial these days, that in 10 years SNCF had gone from wartime devastation to setting a speed record that stood for 26 years - until they broke it themselves with a TGV set ).