North Devon railways

[AlastairFraser]

Bideford to Barnstaple has a bus every 20 minutes or better for most of the day, taking about 25 minutes. A train might be 10 minutes quicker, but the railway is badly sited for both towns so isn't going to save much total time. Sorting out integrated ticketing would surely be the sensible answer there

Certainly, but that's one of the fringe cases in North Devon/Cornwall where the road is actually decent.

Just because you would not choose to make such a journey does not justify such an unmerited criticism of those who do.

The reality is that railways are big ticket items and given this country's economic situation campaigners for improved connections to more far flung places really ought to be looking at how quality road services can make a contribution. To suggest it's trains or nothing will leave you with nothing.

To integrate a quality road service with a railway journey, you need to upgrade the road first to a quality that means the road service is a palatable and genuinely high quality option.

With the population density of the areas surrounding the A3072/A3079 between Bude and Okehampton, it's unlikely that this will be a target for upgrade any time soon.

On the other hand, the new Okehampton Interchange will be only around 25 mins away from Launceston with the recently upgraded A30, so a bus connection is a rational and high quality option.

 

[Zomboid]

With the population density of the areas surrounding the A3072/A3079 between Bude and Okehampton, it's unlikely that this will be a target for upgrade any time soon

But exactly the same issue would apply to a rail project, but with fewer direct beneficiaries.

 

[AlastairFraser]

But exactly the same issue would apply to a rail project, but with fewer direct beneficiaries.

Indeed. My idea is to focus on improving Ilfracombe/Tavistock as light (Ilfracombe) or heavy (Tavistock) rail reopenings, and wait for road improvements before integrated bus/train journeys become viable to places like Bude.

Tavistock in particularly requires only a few miles of new/reinstated track, and has probably the best passenger potential as a railhead for Plymouth (especially if delivered with a sizeable car park because Gunnislake doesn't have that many spaces).

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Bideford to Barnstaple has a bus every 20 minutes or better for most of the day, taking about 25 minutes. A train might be 10 minutes quicker, but the railway is badly sited for both towns so isn't going to save much total time. Sorting out integrated ticketing would surely be the sensible answer there

But most rail passengers from Bideford would be headed for Exeter (work / college / leisure) and beyond rather than Barnstaple. I'm always struck how many long-distance passengers with luggage there are at Okehampton - despite a less than convenient station.

 

[stuu]

On the other hand, the new Okehampton Interchange will be only around 25 mins away from Launceston with the recently upgraded A30, so a bus connection is a rational and high quality option.

Which bit between Launceston and Okehampton was recently upgraded?

But most rail passengers from Bideford would be headed for Exeter (work / college / leisure) and beyond rather than Barnstaple. I'm always struck how many long-distance passengers with luggage there are at Okehampton - despite a less than convenient station.

And?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Which bit between Launceston and Okehampton was recently upgraded?

Yes, the section of the A30 last upgraded is a bit further west.

From research it seems that the dual carriageway Launceston to Okehampton section was built in 1991s, so a modern high standard road, in comparison to the route between Bude and Okehampton.

 

[Gloster]

A service as far as Bideford might have some economic justification in connecting a fair sized town and its hinterland to the main network, rather than for Bideford-Barnstaple local journeys. It was, after all, the genesis of the Speller Act (Transport Act 1962 (Amendment) Act 1981).

However, Okehampton-Bude is never going to pay, even if you overlook the capital costs of rebuilding the line: crossing the West Okement River, getting under the A30, through Halwill and Holsworthy, and in to Bude; the line doesn’t even go into Stratton. As the bus route can only support six buses a day, albeit double-deckers, you are never going to have the traffic to justify reopening. Much as I would love to see parts of the Withered Arm reopen, this is one for modest road improvements and, hopefully, through rail ticketing and bus-train coordination at Okehampton.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A service as far as Bideford might have some economic justification in connecting a fair sized town and its hinterland to the main network, rather than for Bideford-Barnstaple local journeys. It was, after all, the genesis of the Speller Act (Transport Act 1962 (Amendment) Act 1981).

However, Okehampton-Bude is never going to pay, even if you overlook the capital costs of rebuilding the line: crossing the West Okement River, getting under the A30, through Halwill and Holsworthy, and in to Bude; the line doesn’t even go into Stratton. As the bus route can only support six buses a day, albeit double-deckers, you are never going to have the traffic to justify reopening. Much as I would love to see parts of the Withered Arm reopen, this is one for modest road improvements and, hopefully, through rail ticketing and bus-train coordination at Okehampton.

Agreed about Bude - road improvements are the only reasonable solution we can hope for now. It's max 20k people within catchment all the way from Okehampton to Bude, for 30 miles of new alignment.

Ilfracombe, on the other hand, would br approx. 25-30k served for about 15 miles of light rail reopening, with the resultant lower spec structures etc., and the additional benefit of connecting Barnstaple town centre/eastern suburbs to the rail station.

Tavistock would be 5.5 miles of heavy rail reopening, 4.75 miles of which would be on a reused alignment, to connect 13.5k people back onto the network, and it would be a railhead for thousands more people in the surrounding area. It could also easily be operated as an extension of the existing Tamar Valley line, with the Bere Alston to Gunnislake stretch operated with a Parry People Mover type vehicle as a shuttle.

 

[Zomboid]

I think there's hope for Tavistock, but I'm not sure we live in a world where anything more is in much danger of being seriously discussed, never mind actually built.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think there's hope for Tavistock, but I'm not sure we live in a world where anything more is in much danger of being seriously discussed, never mind actually built.

Okehampton to Tavistock certainly has been relatively recently discussed as an avoiding line for the vulnerable coastal sections of the South Devon line. Bideford was proposed as a recommended reopening by ATOC I believe in the late 2000s, since then it's been quieter.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

And?

You imply that Bideford to Barnstaple would fail because of the inconvenience of their stations - I'm suggesting that the main passenger flow from Bideford would be to Exeter and beyond. I was at Exeter Central a hour ago - the service to Barnstaple was absolutely wedged.

 

[stuu]

You imply that Bideford to Barnstaple would fail because of the inconvenience of their stations - I'm suggesting that the main passenger flow from Bideford would be to Exeter and beyond. I was at Exeter Central a hour ago - the service to Barnstaple was absolutely wedged.

My point was what is wrong with people changing from a bus to a train. The major issue is that in a lot of the country you can't rely on the buses, but it would be far more sensible to solve that problem before spending £250m rebuilding the railway. I would also suggest that the main passenger flow from Bideford is to Barnstaple, and logically that is the flow that most justifies having money spent on it

 

[The exile]

The major issue is that in a lot of the country you can't rely on the buses,

I would suggest that the main problems are a) the general public perception of bus travel as a distress purchase to be avoided if at all possible (of course that attitude exists towards trains as well but in a lower percentage of the population) and b) this country’s refusal to see public transport as a fully integrated network. In terms of honouring tickets /compensation /getting you to your destination it should make no difference whether your journey is from St Ives to Thurso entirely by train or Helston to Ullapool with a bus at either end (or even Roy Bridge to Invershin with one in the middle).

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure that there will already be plenty of bus services serving Bideford and the local area. The benefit of reopening the railway would be in enabling people to get to Exeter and beyond on the wider network.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm sure that there will already be plenty of bus services serving Bideford and the local area. The benefit of reopening the railway would be in enabling people to get to Exeter and beyond on the wider network.

But because of the highly inconvenient location of the station high up on the eastern bank of the Torridge, it would take longer for most people in the Bideford-Appledore-Westward Ho! conurbation to reach it and then travel into Exeter, in comparison to an express rail link bus into Barnstaple and a train from there.

This is probably one of the few examples where bus train integration generally is the best option.

 

[yorksrob]

But because of the highly inconvenient location of the station high up on the eastern bank of the Torridge, it would take longer for most people in the Bideford-Appledore-Westward Ho! conurbation to reach it and then travel into Exeter, in comparison to an express rail link bus into Barnstaple and a train from there.

This is probably one of the few examples where bus train integration generally is the best option.

I'm not sure I'd call it inconvenient, compared to stations such as Ramsgate, Folkestone Central and Exeter St Davids, the station is far nearer the centre of town (albeit over the river bridge).

You could also have a parkway station where the A39 crosses the river.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure I'd call it inconvenient, compared to stations such as Ramsgate, Folkestone Central and Exeter St Davids, the station is far nearer the centre of town (albeit over the river bridge).

It is far nearer the centre of town, but 1) it's a five minute walk up a sizeable hill from the nearest decently proportioned parking area and 2) the wrong side of town for most of the population.

You could also have a parkway station where the A39 crosses the river.

You could open that instead of the original Bideford station (although parking would need to be the other side of the B3233).
However, you still have the Instow issue, which makes heavy rail difficult to reinstate.

This is why I propose focusing on Ilfracombe first as a light rail route, as it's even more competitive with car journey times, and the route would serve Barnstaple town centre.
Then perhaps an extension through Bideford to Torrington would be a good idea - you're probably looking at a population catchment of 40k+ if you got as far as Torrington.
Ilfracombe should definitely be the priority though.

 

[yorksrob]

It is far nearer the centre of town, but 1) it's a five minute walk up a sizeable hill from the nearest decently proportioned parking area and 2) the wrong side of town for most of the population.

You could open that instead of the original Bideford station (although parking would need to be the other side of the B3233).
However, you still have the Instow issue, which makes heavy rail difficult to reinstate.

This is why I propose focusing on Ilfracombe first as a light rail route, as it's even more competitive with car journey times, and the route would serve Barnstaple town centre.
Then perhaps an extension through Bideford to Torrington would be a good idea - you're probably looking at a population catchment of 40k+ if you got as far as Torrington.
Ilfracombe should definitely be the priority though.

There are some similarities with Okehampton, which is also up a hill. I note that there are plans for an additional station to serve other parts of town, so I'd suggest keeping both would be the best options.

 

[Zomboid]

In the unlikely event of Barnstaple to Bideford being reopened, a station at the A39 bridge as well as the town station would probably be the ultimate situation. Instow probably isn't big enough, and Fremington is nowhere near the alignment, so Bideford and Bideford Parkway would probably be the limit.

Okehampton to Tavistock certainly has been relatively recently discussed as an avoiding line for the vulnerable coastal sections of the South Devon line.

Tavistock to Bere Alston might make the grade, but the gap to Okehampton I just don't see. Dawlish is vulnerable, but it's not been a problem all that often to justify going round Dartmoor as a diversion. It would have to work as a local service, and I'm not sure it would.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There are some similarities with Okehampton, which is also up a hill. I note that there are plans for an additional station to serve other parts of town, so I'd suggest keeping both would be the best options.

The current Okehampton station has a reasonable amount of parking directly adjacent though, and the Interchange being built closer to the eastern A30 junction will be useful for a much wider region (because the A30 is a major strategic route serving/in close proximity to many sizeable non-rail connected towns - the A39 is more local travel-orientated with not much west of Bideford apart from Bude within a reasonable driving or public transport journey time).

In the unlikely event of Barnstaple to Bideford being reopened, a station at the A39 bridge as well as the town station would probably be the ultimate situation. Instow probably isn't big enough, and Fremington is nowhere near the alignment, so Bideford and Bideford Parkway would probably be the limit.

I could see Instow and Fremington getting light rail stops, and I can't see how you could possibly operate it as a regular mainline heavy rail service, given the numerous locations where the current Tarka Trail is very close to buildings or intersects with the road network at very awkward points.

Tavistock to Bere Alston might make the grade, but the gap to Okehampton I just don't see. Dawlish is vulnerable, but it's not been a problem all that often to justify going round Dartmoor as a diversion. It would have to work as a local service, and I'm not sure it would.

Don't forget that you have the seasonal summer traffic heading up to Dartmoor, and the numerous events happening in Tavistock that draw big crowds to help supplement your regular commuter loads, and if you operated it as a through local service, you'd have the heavy loadings at either end to help form a decent cost base, with only the approx. 18 miles in the middle where loadings are lower.