North Downs line electrification

[Sunset route]

I know I'm not talking vast about of route mileage, but we have engineers who have laid a fair amount conductor rail as in the East London Line New Cross gate including depot to Highbury & Islington including sub station, the Thameslink at Three Bridges depot including its own sub station, then there is Horsham sidings, down main sidings at Brighton, Hove sidings, Wall,sidings (Brighton), Preston Park sidings, Gatwick Platform 7 and still to come the relaid Waterloo plats 21-24 and Redhill Plat 0, not to mention all the conductor rail that has been and going to be installed between Bricklayers Arms through London Bridge to Blackfriars.

So we do have engineers that know how to place the conductor rail at the right height and spacing to the relevant running rail and even some that have installed new sub stations including the recent upgrade work on the BML. So now all you've got to do is get a competent project leader to put all together for a larger scheme to fill in the gaps on the NDL and Marshlink.

There won't be much of any clearance problems just new cable runs for the power supply and new subs and TPs, not a small problem I know but it's still got to be easier than trying to put up all the knitting and converting or buying duel voltage stock.

So we are left with political will and money as the main obstacles in my mind to prevent this going forward.

 

[najaB]

DC electrical equipment has come an awful long way in the last 20-25 years after all. A development project with a relatively small scheme attached for real world testing seems like a reasonable idea.

The basic physics of low voltage = high current = high resistive losses hasn't changed though.

 

[najaB]

So we are left with political will and money as the main obstacles in my mind to prevent this going forward.

Those obstacles apply equally to 25 kV OHLE AC and 750V DC third-rail schemes.

 

[Deepgreen]

There were shades of possible things to come yesterday at Redhill when a Southern 377 in platform 2 was being stubbornly described on the platform indicators as a Reading train! It even had the doors unlocked despite showing 'Out of Service' on the train itself.

 

[Sunset route]

Those obstacles apply equally to 25 kV OHLE AC and 750V DC third-rail schemes.

Or in fact any infrastructure improvement work whether it be civils, signalling, power supply or a combination of the above. All I'm saying is the cost of laying third rail plus the skills are out there, that might need pulling together, but they don't need to be relearned, especially if you grab the engineers off the Thameslink project fresh with the knowledge of how to work with the 750v system.

 

[JamesRowden]

There were shades of possible things to come yesterday at Redhill when a Southern 377 in platform 2 was being stubbornly described on the platform indicators as a Reading train! It even had the doors unlocked despite showing 'Out of Service' on the train itself.

The route via Clapham Junction is electrified.

 

[HSTEd]

The basic physics of low voltage = high current = high resistive losses hasn't changed though.

There are however some loopholes in the current standard which can be exploited using modern electronics to raise the effective supply voltage though. Had a couple of ideas I should probably write up

 

[XDM]

The basic physics of low voltage = high current = high resistive losses hasn't changed though.

True. But a petty,trivial cost in relation to the mega millions NR managers demand for AC electrification. As has been said & shown with pics of steaming conductor rails before, DC consumption comparison is not helped by huge losses though damp ballast piled high against live conductor rails - by NR. Went past the Lymington branch as it leaves Brockenhurst to the south west recently. Reballasted about 5 weeks ago, damp stones are still piled right up to the level of the conductor rail to provide a hugh conductive shoulder for this 45 mph line. The dip down at the end of the conductor rail is buried in wet ballast on rainy days.
I am amazed at the person who continues to press here for AC on the lightly used 75 mph North downs line infill when ac has been made insanely costly,as has much else,by NR big wigs.

 

[najaB]

I am amazed at the person who continues to press here for AC on the lightly used 75 mph North downs line infill when ac has been made insanely costly,as has much else,by NR big wigs.

TBH, with increasing numbers of bi-mode designs coming to market I can't see the point of North Downs electrification as either AC or DC. But, if it was to be done, I'd much rather it be 25kV OHLE - 750V DC third rail has to die (in my opinion).

 

[Magicake]

TBH, with increasing numbers of bi-mode designs coming to market I can't see the point of North Downs electrification as either AC or DC. But, if it was to be done, I'd much rather it be 25kV OHLE - 750V DC third rail has to die (in my opinion).

Unfortunately for future electrification projects it's rather beginning to look as though the decision makers in the DfT agree with you about bi-modes..

 

[XDM]

Unfortunately for future electrification projects it's rather beginning to look as though the decision makers in the DfT agree with you about bi-modes..

Before the love affair with bimode at the DfT turns into a marriage with contracts surely we should experience some small scale running in this country & see what the problems,if any,are. They work perfectly well in Europe but there is no guarantee unknown unknowns won't emerge here,since tricky NR will be involved. Electric train depots for instance will have to be supplied with fuelling roads care of NR. Even if they work well, surely the risk of problems with extra complexity are worth eradicating on the North Downs with lengths of conductor rail,& transformer huts bought from low cost China.

 

[najaB]

Unfortunately for future electrification projects it's rather beginning to look as though the decision makers in the DfT agree with you about bi-modes..

For large-scale projects on mainlines, bi-modes don't make sense but they seem the ideal solution for situations where mostly electrified 75mph secondary routes need some 'minor infill'.

 

[najaB]

...with lengths of conductor rail,& transformer huts bought from low cost China.

So cheap electrification done on the cheap. No chance at all that'll go wrong... :roll:

 

[HSTEd]

So cheap electrification done on the cheap. No chance at all that'll go wrong... :roll:

It'll go wrong anyway.
Industrial equipment that is newly purchased always does.

 

[snowball]

the love affair with bimode at the DfT

As far as I know, lots of the bi-modes now on order were the idea of franchise bidders rather than the DfT. Hull, East Anglia, the south-west, Trans-Pennine.

 

[Unclepete]

Hi,
Now that we know First have got their hands on the SWT franchise going forward, does anyone think this changes the possibility of electrification either 3rd or AC coming to the North Downs any sooner?

 

[Deepgreen]

Hi,
Now that we know First have got their hands on the SWT franchise going forward, does anyone think this changes the possibility of electrification either 3rd or AC coming to the North Downs any sooner?

No impact, I assume - NR would be the instigators of such a scheme and I think it is decades away yet, no matter which TOC may operate the route.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

More chance of one of us coming up on the lottery than it happening, especially with the devious bunch that are in SCC.