North London Line on pre-Overground tube maps

[gottago]

I'm home for Christmas and have found a tube map from 2007 from the first time (I think) I ever visited London. I now live there and it's interesting to compare what I'm so familiar with now to what was until fairly recently quite a different map.

Is there any particular reason why the North London Line was the only National Rail line to feature on the standard tube map? It seems odd that other lines within the TFL zones and either starting or terminating at stations already on the map aren't included such as Gospel Oak to Barking and the West London Line. I can't seem to find anything about its inclusion online, any ideas?

EDIT: And after doing a bit more digging when I say the "only" NR line on the map there were others on there in the past such as Thameslink and the Waterloo and City pre-tube but in terms of the last maps before the Overground was introduced the NLL was the only one on there.

 

[W-on-Sea]

If my recollections are correct, the North London line (which then went from Richmond to Broad Street in the City, rather than Stratford) first appeared on the tube map as long ago as 1977, as part of measures intended to increase usage of the line - which had been under threat of closure. I think the Greater London Council may have given funding or otherwise encouraged London Transport to include the line on the map. Quite a few stations on it (off the top of my head: South Acton, Brondesbury Park, Canonbury) had no Sunday service, and Kentish Town West was closed for several years following a fire.

(For what it's worth, at that time, the West London Line had an extremely minimal service - rush hour trains, some of them unadvertised, from Clapham Junction to Olympia, and little more, as regards local passenger services: while the Barking to Gospel Oak line - which ran instead to Kentish Town until 1981 - was very severely run down indeed, and trains considerably more infrequent - so there would have been no strong case to include them at that time)

The NLL disappeared from the tube map some time later (mid-1980s - possibly when Broad Street was closed and trains were diverted to North Woolwich? - but also I think as part of a simplification of the map), before reappearing...I'm not sure when, but I guess early or mid-1990s?

 

[Eagle]

Also Thameslink (at least West Hampstead to Moorgate/London Bridge/Elephant and Castle bit) appeared from when it opened in 1988 up until about 2000. The Northern City line also appears on some 1990s maps. And of course the W&C line appeared on pretty much every tube map (even pre-Beck) despite not becoming part of the Underground till 1994.

Some examples: 1990, 1994, 1998, all from the Tube Map Archive.

(Also I like how the Jubilee line extension was appearing on maps five whole years before it opened.)

 

[Surreytraveller]

Also Thameslink (at least West Hampstead to Moorgate/London Bridge/Elephant and Castle bit) appeared from when it opened in 1988 up until about 2000. The Northern City line also appears on some 1990s maps. And of course the W&C line appeared on pretty much every tube map (even pre-Beck) despite not becoming part of the Underground till 1994.

I always thought the reason why the section of Thameslink that appeared on Underground maps, as well as the W&C, was because LT fares were applied for those sections. Did LT fares apply for the North London too for the duration it appeared on the Underground maps?

 

[Class172]

When did the NNL disappear before becoming part of the overground? The poster map I have in my room has it on, at the same time as the Woolwich Arsenal extension.

Mid-2007 at a guess?

 

[W-on-Sea]

No, LT fares did not apply on the NNL: certainly not in the early years of its inclusion on the map (which was moreover before the introduction of travelcards or fare zones); nor I think, later on, either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(Also, on that basis, it would be logical to show those NR/BR lines with interavailable ticketing, such as Liverpool St-Stratford, Fenchurch St-Upminster...) Historical chance and then habit probably, above all, explain why the NLL was singled out to appear, in preference to numerous similar services, above all in South London.

 

[PeterY]

If my recollections are correct, the North London line (which then went from Richmond to Broad Street in the City, rather than Stratford) first appeared on the tube map as long ago as 1977, as part of measures intended to increase usage of the line - which had been under threat of closure. I think the Greater London Council may have given funding or otherwise encouraged London Transport to include the line on the map. Quite a few stations on it (off the top of my head: South Acton, Brondesbury Park, Canonbury) had no Sunday service, and Kentish Town West was closed for several years following a fire.

(For what it's worth, at that time, the West London Line had an extremely minimal service - rush hour trains, some of them unadvertised, from Clapham Junction to Olympia, and little more, as regards local passenger services: while the Barking to Gospel Oak line - which ran instead to Kentish Town until 1981 - was very severely run down indeed, and trains considerably more infrequent - so there would have been no strong case to include them at that time)

The NLL disappeared from the tube map some time later (mid-1980s - possibly when Broad Street was closed and trains were diverted to North Woolwich? - but also I think as part of a simplification of the map), before reappearing...I'm not sure when, but I guess early or mid-1990s?

How the fortunes of the NNL lines have changed since the dark days of the 70's

In my 1976 B.R. passenger timetable, there are in table 147, two trains advertised from Clapham Jct to Kensington Olympia 08.12 & 08.45 and return at 16.36 & 17.08

 

[alwaystouchout]

Also Thameslink (at least West Hampstead to Moorgate/London Bridge/Elephant and Castle bit) appeared from when it opened in 1988 up until about 2000. The Northern City line also appears on some 1990s maps. And of course the W&C line appeared on pretty much every tube map (even pre-Beck) despite not becoming part of the Underground till 1994.

Some examples: 1990, 1994, 1998, all from the Tube Map Archive.

(Also I like how the Jubilee line extension was appearing on maps five whole years before it opened.)

DLR looks so primitive on the 1990 tube map!

 

[nrturner]

The DLR looks even more primitive on the 1987 map (which doesn't have the NLL on it): http://www.clarksbury.com/cdl/maps/tube87.jpg

 

[plymothian]

Wasn't there a campaign by NLL supporters to get it on the Tube Map? Even going so far as to 'vandalising' maps by adding it themselves using crude stickers?

 

[CapitalStar378]

Interesting that the Overground line style and colour on today's maps was first used to show British Rail lines. The ELL was still in Met colours too.

 

[Taunton]

Wasn't there a campaign by NLL supporters to get it on the Tube Map?

Yes there was. The old GLC was associated with this, along with borough councils and a supporters organisation.

 

[Eagle]

The DLR looks even more primitive on the 1987 map (which doesn't have the NLL on it): http://www.clarksbury.com/cdl/maps/tube87.jpg

The thing that's most primitive about that map is how much "peak times only" there is on it compared to the equivalent service today.

 

[Class172]

The thing that's most primitive about that map is how much "peak times only" there is on it compared to the equivalent service today.

Indeed, some parts which I didn't expect (due to the old met arrangement) such as Aldgate and at Baker Street

 

[Eagle]

Indeed, some parts which I didn't expect (due to the old met arrangement) such as Aldgate and at Baker Street

Yep. Off-peak you had the H&C (which had operationally been a separate line for many years prior, but was only officially split off in 1989) running Hammersmith to Whitechapel, and all other Met line services terminated at Baker Street.

 

[zn1]

the removal of the watford - liverpool streets(former broad street) was a short sighted move i think....the new line has been on the tube map for years, as the shared line with bakerloo,

 

[bicbasher]

Yep. Off-peak you had the H&C (which had operationally been a separate line for many years prior, but was only officially split off in 1989) running Hammersmith to Whitechapel, and all other Met line services terminated at Baker Street.

Wasn't there a peak hours only service to Barking on the H&C? I remember travelling to Liverpool Street from Whitechapel around 99/00 and off-peaks started there.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Yes, the H&C did run to Barking in the peaks.

 

[Mojo]

I do wonder why so many stations on lines with a passenger service were closed on Sundays or Saturdays and Sundays.

 

[Eagle]

Yes, the H&C did run to Barking in the peaks.

And selected Met "mainline" services continued to Aldgate (which for the rest of the day was a Circle line only station).

 

[bicbasher]

I do wonder why so many stations on lines with a passenger service were closed on Sundays or Saturdays and Sundays.

Borough was one of them (which until recently was also closed on Boxing Day) as it used to be one of the quieter areas for passengers in comparison to London Bridge which isn't that far and Elephant & Castle.

Cannon Street which is still closed on Sunday, except for engineering works and late evenings should open all day once Southeastern introduce all day services to the mainline station as part of Thameslink work at London Bridge in Jan 2015.

 

[telstarbox]

Why was Shoreditch open Mon-Fri peak hours but also Sunday mornings?

 

[Eagle]

Brick Lane has a street market on Sunday mornings.

 

[tractakid]

Why was Shoreditch open Mon-Fri peak hours but also Sunday mornings?

I am having vague recollections the reason was for a Sunday market? Shoreditch was closed before I became properly interested in rail transit/tube challenging so my knowledge isn't great.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Yes, Shoreditch's Sunday opening was for market trade - mostly for Club Row and Columbia Road markets.

Not exactly sure what pre-empted the switch to almost all stations being open seven days ac week - even those (such as Roding Valley or Fairlop, both of which were Mon-Fri only) with fairly limited usage. I wonder if the universal introduction of passenger-operated ticket machines was the determining factor, as that presumably would have allowed staffing requirements to be reduced a little?

Seems odd now to think of Covent Garden or Barbican being closed on Sundays, or West Brompton or Mornington Crescent on Saturdays and Sundays, but not so long ago they were...

 

[Carlisle]

From memory the west london line never had much of a passanger service at all until it was electrified primarily for ecs Eurostar services to North Pole depot and the never introduced regional Eurostar service and class 92 hauled freight

 

[Eagle]

Regular services between Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction started in 1994; operated by NSE shadow franchises for a couple of years before passing to Silverlink and Connex. (Additionally the few Intercity services that used the line remained, passing to Virgin.)

At the time the only intermediate station was Kensington Olympia. West Brompton reopened in 1999 (having closed in WWII), and new stations at Shepherd's Bush and Imperial Wharf came much later in 2008 and 2009 respectively.

 

[W-on-Sea]

And of course Olympia used to be the London railhead for the Motorail (car-carrying) services too...

 

[Carlisle]

And i seem to remember there were plans for the station to become Kensington Olympia International station if the planned regional Eurostar service had actually started

 

[Surreytraveller]

I do wonder why so many stations on lines with a passenger service were closed on Sundays or Saturdays and Sundays.

Pre-1994/5ish (or whenever Sunday trading came in), shops were shut on Sundays, and back in those days it really was dead in a lot of areas on a Sunday. There just wasn't the amount of people travelling on a Sunday as there is now.

Same with bus services - a lot of routes were just Mon-Sat only, or had Sunday variations. A lot of high-frequency routes during the week were either hourly or just didn't run on a Sunday.