North London Line Query

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by RichmondCommu, 27 Aug 2015.

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  1. RichmondCommu

    RichmondCommu Established Member

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    G'day everyone,

    I'm curious to know whether all four lines between Camden Road East Junction and Dalston Kingsland are all currently in use. I only ask because when I traveled along the route yesterday a sleeper was placed across one of the lines between Camden and I think Caledonian Road and there seemed to be a lot of weeds about for what I assume is a running line.

    Also, when we arrived at West Hampstead station we were told that there were significant delays on the line to Stratford due to a broken down train but saw nothing and suffered no disruption. This was all at around 11.00.

    Any ideas?

    Kind regards,

    Richmond Commuter!
     
    Last edited: 27 Aug 2015
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  3. Freightmaster

    Freightmaster Established Member

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    Sounds like the section west of Highbury and Islington station where
    one track has been retained as an 'emergency connection' between
    the NLL and the ELL - the third line in this picture:
    [​IMG]

    Not sure if it has ever been used, though...


    MARK
     
  4. RichmondCommu

    RichmondCommu Established Member

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    Mark, many thanks for your post but stand by for a stupid question; how does the emergency connection work? Not only that but on the 4th track why has the buffer stop been placed there? I appreciate that the ELL service finishes there but why the buffer stop?
     
  5. causton

    causton Established Member

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    The emergency connection is there in the fact that there is track linking the 3rd from left track to the 2nd from left track. But not planned to be used, not least because of the different electrification on each pair of lines.

    The buffer stop is on the 4th line as shortly beyond the buffer stop the track finishes and goes no further!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Do not forget the excellent Carto Metro map :)

    http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/m...x.php?gpslat=51.546588&gpslon=-0.10535&zoom=5
     
  6. RichmondCommu

    RichmondCommu Established Member

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    Many thanks for this, really helpful! One other question, why does the route reduce down to two tracks between Caledonian Road and Highbury when its four tracks either side of that?
     
  7. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

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    There are freight loops at Caledonian Road and Barnsbury, but by the time you get to Highbury these have ended and you now have the separate pairs of running lines, one for the NLL and one for the ELL. The rest of the NLL is only 2 track so it'd be pointless to have 4 tracks for passenger services over this small section.

    Now, if you ended the ELL towards Camden Road this would be a different matter. I will however resist the urge to crack out the crayons!
     
    Last edited: 27 Aug 2015
  8. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Not only that, but the line itself (iirc) has no juice at all, meaning a diesel loco is needed.

    I would have thought it much nicer had the connecting line, and all of platform 2, been given 25kv ac overhead to allow a train from the west to terminate in it/depart from it going to the west in times of disruption.

    Initially we were promised at one point that there would be some through services between Camden Road and shoreditch (then taken off the plan, in favour of wholly separate lines).
     
  9. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    is the tunnel between Caledonian Road and Highbury & Islington capable of taking four tracks?

    If we're doing Crayons, and are able to make the freight go elsewhere, the "obvious"* solution is to restore to four track all the way to Camden Road (where there's long disused platforms), then create a new alignment from the northern pair of platforms to Camden West Junction. The ELL could then run through, with a re-opened Primrose Hill station giving interchange with Chalk Farm, onto the Watford DC.

    As a minor issue, this would amplify the small issue that where the NLL and ELL/Watford line were parallel, the next train between two stations could be from one of two separate platforms- but adding flyovers at Dalston and Camden would be a step maybe too far.

    Though if you did add them, you'd want to reconfigure the stations as two-island rather than outer + island.



    *for a given value of "obvious", perhaps only obvious to me and others wibbling
     
  10. Skoodle

    Skoodle Member

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    The "emergency connection" is the 'Transfer Line'. There is a signal at the end of Platform 2 and AC starts just beyond the signal.
     
  11. glbotu

    glbotu Member

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    I'd be wary of preventing people getting to Euston though. I think there have been suggestions to send the entire WatfordDC into the NLL, but one of the main things holding it back are the fact people want to get to Euston from all the Watford DC stations. Given Watford DC - NLL is a fairly simple connection at Willesden Junction, this is also not really a problem that needs solving.
     
  12. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

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    It's worth noting that one of the plans did see ELL services extended through to Camden Road, utilising at least one of the disused platforms, but I seem to recall that the projected cost of refurbishing the three bridges involved put paid to that.

    I seem to recall another suggestion featured extending services to Finsbury Park via the Canonbury Curve, but the capacity constraint of the single track saw that dumped as well.
     
  13. CapitalStar378

    CapitalStar378 Member

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    I believe the main issue with using the Canonbury Curve was the flat junction and having to cross NLL tracks. There's no space for a grade separated junction and no digging down as the CTRL runs under the NLL.
     
  14. mr_jrt

    mr_jrt Member

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    The problem with serving Euston is easy enough - restore platforms (and thus stops) at Willesden Junction on the slow lines. The number of passengers to/from Kensal Green, Queens Park, Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead wanting Euston and having no other options would be fairly small, and easily accommodated by an interchange link from Chalk Farm to Primrose Hill.
     
  15. Trog

    Trog Established Member

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    You would then probably need a fifth and sixth line into Euston, to give capacity for the extra passengers, as the peak services on both AC and DC are rammed already. The big question would be what to call the new fifth and sith lines as we already have a fast and slow lines. Reliefs is a bit too Great Western so we should probably call them something descriptive in the LNWR tradition of line naming. As they would be the most recently constructed of the three pairs of tracks perhaps the Willesden New Lines, or as they would probably be DC to match the rest of the line to Watford and that is unusual north of the river, perhaps they could be called the DC lines.
     
  16. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    The earliest track access applications I ever saw assumed a central turn back platform at Camden Rd, (with the eastbound line moved to the other side of the island) but only for short workings in the peaks to and from Stratford. I never saw a version online with an ELL service to Camden Rd, although it may have been an early aspiration.

    AIUI Stratford - Camden Rd services were gradually negotiated away and never started; the 8tph peak and 6tph off-peak through services to/from Richmond and Clapham Jn were developed in their place.
     
  17. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Whilst possible, combining electrification systems is difficult (read expensive) and only put in where there is no practical alternative, and you have a regular service needing to use the connection to justify the effort. I believe that Abbey Wood will have exactly the same track arrangement for Crossrail, excepting that the 3rd rail is on the through lines.
     
  18. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    They are going to be built. Up High Speed and Down High Speed.
     
  19. RichmondCommu

    RichmondCommu Established Member

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    Apologies for perhaps asking a really stupid question here but isn't there already six lines into Euston given that as far as I can see you have the two DC lines and four lines for AC?
     
  20. snowball

    snowball Established Member

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    For the last mile and a half into Euston the DC lines have always(?) been combined with the WCML slow lines and are dual electrified. They connect to platforms 8-11 in the centre of the station, with platforms 9 and 10 being dual electrified.

    However there used to be various other lines over parts of this route, originally used for ECS, locos etc, which I think have been consolidated into a third AC-only through line, giving five through lines in all.

    The approaches to Euston are really bizarre with various diveunders. I suppose historically they had long-distance arrivals on the east side, long-distance departures on the west side and suburbans in the middle, and didn't change the layout much when it was electrified.
     
    Last edited: 29 Aug 2015
  21. mr_jrt

    mr_jrt Member

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    You can get a rough idea from here.
     
  22. Trog

    Trog Established Member

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    Yes there are I was trying to be a bit funny, and perhaps not succeeding that well.
     
  23. 321over360

    321over360 Member

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    Its due to the change in the rail layout between Caledonian Road & Barnsbury and Dalston Kingsland as a result of the ELL extension, originally, up until the ELL works, NLL trains after leaving Dalston Junction would navigate over to what is now the ELL tracks, and it ran as a 4 track layout I believe to Camden Road, however this changed due to the ELL extension to H&I hence why 4 turn into 2 between CR&B and H&I
     
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