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North Wales Main Line Electrification

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cle

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Apparently those Glasgows are so overcrowded that they can't be allowed to call at Crewe, as so many extra people would use them that it would be unsafe!
(That was the railway's excuse to my MP when he protested after the Crewe stops were withdrawn...) I wouldn't think they would want to encourage Chester and N Wales people to use them as well.
This is fair - maybe this exists once HS2 does, and there is a second tph to Scotland.

Equally, there is a real need for a second Lancashire service - something serving Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster - journeys between them, and London. It might arguably get to Carlisle every two hours. It could call at Watford or MKC perhaps. Reallocated Blackpool paths for this.

Then you could have a fast Euston - (Crewe) - Preston-Carlisle-Scotland pattern. I'd add Lancaster if no Crewe, but it feels like Crewe will only increase as a hub.
 
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Trainbike46

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Surely you just "accidentally" send an out of gauge load down the line. "Oh dear, they're unsafe, they'll have to come straight down"
That sounds like the Ayr station hotel approach to listed buildings - really not a good thing

I suppose you could replace the bridges with architecturally comparable designs, but the listing people really don't like pastiches like that.
Neither do they like them being demolished, so we are at an impasse.

Unless someone wants to relay the railway with slab track!
Track lowering could also be considered, or depending on how far out of gauge the different bridges are, insulating paint and surge arrestors, or alternatively, despite the option of raising the bridges with the existing arch having issues listed by zwk500, they don't sound impossible to solve

They tried that or a very similar system on EWR. The problem is that you are raising the crown of the road which causes road traffic and under-road services problems and you risk the settlement of the arch awkwardly on the modified abutments. Given the sensitivity of a brick arch to movement impacting the strength of the structure this is a big problem.
Clearance at the crown of the arch tends not to be a problem, it's clearance on the corners. So replacing an arch with a flat deck means you can clear the railway without adversely impacting the road profile, while also giving a structure that can accept a moderate amount of shifting as it settles onto the abutment.
 

Chester1

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In that case I wonder how that notion got any traction? Maybe the anti-rail lobby were fighting a rearguard campaign using disinformation... I swallowed it!
I suppose it might even have been like the supposed difficulties of wiring Standedge tunnel, a pretend reason for not proceding.

I think the only conclusion we can draw is that there is a deep-seated determination in Whitehall to prevent any rail upgrades or modernisation. Without postulating some sort of determined opposition it's hard to understand why blindingly obvious next steps in the efficiency improvements and reductions in costs of our railways just don't happen.

I think only @HSTEd said they were listed. While its easier to get permission to demolish non listed bridges it won't be an easy planning battle. Its still knocking down approximately 25 victorian bridges. The are amongst some of the oldest railway bridges in the country (the line was built im the 1850s).

The bridge problem isn't insurmountable but I do think the duration of closures will necessitate diverting Avanti services via the Middlewich freight line and mid Cheshire line. It potentially requires some upgrades to the former to increase the speed limit above 20mph.

This is fair - maybe this exists once HS2 does, and there is a second tph to Scotland.

Equally, there is a real need for a second Lancashire service - something serving Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster - journeys between them, and London. It might arguably get to Carlisle every two hours. It could call at Watford or MKC perhaps. Reallocated Blackpool paths for this.

Then you could have a fast Euston - (Crewe) - Preston-Carlisle-Scotland pattern. I'd add Lancaster if no Crewe, but it feels like Crewe will only increase as a hub.

I don't think there is sufficient capacity between Lichfield and Crewe for another service. Best we can hope for is HS2 single units to be extended to 250m and maybe an additional two coaches for Manchester Airport to Scotland services.
 

Krokodil

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That sounds like the Ayr station hotel approach to listed buildings - really not a good thing
I'm keen on building conservation, but not to the exclusion of all progress.

Track lowering could also be considered,
Track lowering has already been done, this was the work to clear Pendos. The line is already prone to flooding, do we really want to make that worse?
 

AndrewE

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This is fair - maybe this exists once HS2 does, and there is a second tph to Scotland.

Equally, there is a real need for a second Lancashire service - something serving Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster - journeys between them, and London. It might arguably get to Carlisle every two hours. It could call at Watford or MKC perhaps. Reallocated Blackpool paths for this.

Then you could have a fast Euston - (Crewe) - Preston-Carlisle-Scotland pattern. I'd add Lancaster if no Crewe, but it feels like Crewe will only increase as a hub.
Crewe is already busy as a hub, but demand is currently heavily suppressed by its most important services either not calling (EUS-GLA) or being halved in frequency (LIV - BHM) - and the Chesters being thinned out.
Track lowering could also be considered, or depending on how far out of gauge the different bridges are, insulating paint and surge arrestors, or alternatively, despite the option of raising the bridges with the existing arch having issues listed by zwk500, they don't sound impossible to solve
Unfortunately the line regularly suffers from flooding so track lowering is not an option, I guess the brick bridge arch sides are the killers for this so magic paint won't work - and the tunnel... As I said, just bring in a narrow pan!
 

Trainbike46

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I'm keen on building conservation, but not to the exclusion of all progress.


Track lowering has already been done, this was the work to clear Pendos. The line is already prone to flooding, do we really want to make that worse?
I agree sometimes buildings need to be brought down, however, appropriate procedures should be followed, not the approach of purposefully "accidentally" bringing them down with illegal and potentially dangerous methods, whether with a out-of-gauge train, arson, or the highways england approach of just covering everything in concrete. The fact that they aren't actually listed certainly makes the procedures easier.

Drainage (and flood walls if needed) could be improved. However, track lowering is only one of many options available in the toolkit of the railway, and deciding which is right will require detailed information of the line in question. It sounds like drainage improvements may be desirable regardless of whether the track gets lowered!

In any case, given these are undoubtedly differing bridges, a different approach or combination of approaches could be the right one for different bridges. What I am sure of is that the railway has the ability to electrify this line.
 

Meerkat

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Really need a pro-active campaign on bridge listing.
Maybe like the newts plan round here, where they went out and found them and places they were likely to be, and anywhere else didn’t have to jump through the hoops and hope a NIMBY didn’t ‘find’ one.
And don’t just survey the active lines.
”We are going to demolish these X type bridges, but will give a grant to preserve a couple of X types on closed lines. The public can see those, as opposed to the ones on our line that are only seen by train drivers and will soon have OLE and raised parapets all round them.
And go direct to Rishi - these extremists are blocking your plan.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Really need a pro-active campaign on bridge listing.
Maybe like the newts plan round here, where they went out and found them and places they were likely to be, and anywhere else didn’t have to jump through the hoops and hope a NIMBY didn’t ‘find’ one.
And don’t just survey the active lines.
”We are going to demolish these X type bridges, but will give a grant to preserve a couple of X types on closed lines. The public can see those, as opposed to the ones on our line that are only seen by train drivers and will soon have OLE and raised parapets all round them.
And go direct to Rishi - these extremists are blocking your plan.
The question surely to be asked is how these bridges form part of the connecting road system to the settlements in the area in which they exist.
 

zwk500

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Unfortunately the line regularly suffers from flooding so track lowering is not an option, I guess the brick bridge arch sides are the killers for this so magic paint won't work - and the tunnel... As I said, just bring in a narrow pan!
Track lowering can be done in tandem with drainage work to alleviate flooding. However Simple brick arch bridges shouldn't be being listed (and I never said they were) as they are architecturally the default option for that time period, and replacing them with a beam bridge has such a minimal impact compared to what was there before that it's really the most sensible option. A narrow pan might be viable at lower speeds but the increased risk of a dewirement means you may end up saving pennies but spending pounds later on.
A pre-fab modular system is already in widespread use within NR to build concrete beam or shallow arch bridges within weekend possessions. The issue is not a technical one but a regulatory one, it's the planning and listing system that are inflating costs here.

Really need a pro-active campaign on bridge listing.
Maybe like the newts plan round here, where they went out and found them and places they were likely to be, and anywhere else didn’t have to jump through the hoops and hope a NIMBY didn’t ‘find’ one.
And don’t just survey the active lines.
”We are going to demolish these X type bridges, but will give a grant to preserve a couple of X types on closed lines. The public can see those, as opposed to the ones on our line that are only seen by train drivers and will soon have OLE and raised parapets all round them.
This is all good
And go direct to Rishi - these extremists are blocking your plan.
Rishi doesn't care. He's on the side of private travel.
The question surely to be asked is how these bridges form part of the connecting road system to the settlements in the area in which they exist.
Such questions are regularly asked but even a single dwelling can make it very hard to remove a road bridge if it will mean a major diversion.
 

The Planner

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Crewe is already busy as a hub, but demand is currently heavily suppressed by its most important services either not calling (EUS-GLA) or being halved in frequency (LIV - BHM) - and the Chesters being thinned out.
Second Birmingham Liverpool is back from December.
 

Trainbike46

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Really need a pro-active campaign on bridge listing.
Maybe like the newts plan round here, where they went out and found them and places they were likely to be, and anywhere else didn’t have to jump through the hoops and hope a NIMBY didn’t ‘find’ one.
And don’t just survey the active lines.
”We are going to demolish these X type bridges, but will give a grant to preserve a couple of X types on closed lines. The public can see those, as opposed to the ones on our line that are only seen by train drivers and will soon have OLE and raised parapets all round them.
And go direct to Rishi - these extremists are blocking your plan.
I suspect Rishi response would be something along the lines of "great, a reason to cancel that one!"

seriously though, preserving the bridges on abandoned and heritag lines makes more sense - and contributing to the cost of preservation is certainly an option to come to a compromise
 

Meerkat

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Rishi doesn't care. He's on the side of private travel.
If you say (rant) so.
I think he would care, if for no other reason than politics.
He gets to either force it through and achieve things, or he gets to score points against those who block them.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The problem on websites such as this is that in the mindset of certain contributors, politicians at all levels up to Prime Minister live in a fantasy world where they view railways on a par with the NHS, defence spending, etc.

It is a known political fact that in the list of various Ministries to be filled at the time when it comes to "reshuffle-time", the Transport Ministry is seen as one of the lesser posts to hold.
 

snowball

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Really need a pro-active campaign on bridge listing.
Maybe like the newts plan round here, where they went out and found them and places they were likely to be, and anywhere else didn’t have to jump through the hoops and hope a NIMBY didn’t ‘find’ one.
And don’t just survey the active lines.
”We are going to demolish these X type bridges, but will give a grant to preserve a couple of X types on closed lines. The public can see those, as opposed to the ones on our line that are only seen by train drivers and will soon have OLE and raised parapets all round them.
And go direct to Rishi - these extremists are blocking your plan.
What is the evidence for all this sudden talk of bridge listing being a big problem?
 

Chester1

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The problem on websites such as this is that in the mindset of certain contributors, politicians at all levels up to Prime Minister live in a fantasy world where they view railways on a par with the NHS, defence spending, etc.

It is a known political fact that in the list of various Ministries to be filled at the time when it comes to "reshuffle-time", the Transport Ministry is seen as one of the lesser posts to hold.

I agree with this. If there is a local push back transport policies are rarely worth the hassle for politicians. Chester is a prime example of this. When the Dee Junction - Mickle Trafford line was closing for freight in the late 90s the County Council tried to build a bus way and park and ride. Due to massive local opposition the old line is now a cycle track. Its a very nice amenity for local residents but Chester has declined as a tourist destination, partially due to lack of parking and suitable alternatives. A park and ride was built but the buses battle through traffic.
 

Krokodil

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Such questions are regularly asked but even a single dwelling can make it very hard to remove a road bridge if it will mean a major diversion.
There are a few lanes that can be severed without a significant diversion, but otherwise most of those bridges would need replacing with new.

If you say (rant) so.
I think he would care, if for no other reason than politics.
He gets to either force it through and achieve things, or he gets to score points against those who block them.
Which do you think is more likely? Achieving things or scoring political points?
 

RobShipway

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I was going to ask if the land around Christletom Tunnel can be lowered to allow OHLE, but I read from https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/resources/christleton-tunnel-approach that Christleton Tunnel is prone to flooding.

Is the flooding from the Shropshire Union Canal? From the maps on https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices/14270-christleton-rail-tunnel-shropshire-union-canal the railway line goes under the Shropshire Union Canal, so I am presuming the flooding is coming from the canal after heavy rain?

The problem as I see is that you have a separate tunnel path for each line as per the photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/light_steam/51314565462/. If the track is already getting flooded by heavy rain, then lowering the track could make that situation worse.

As per page 3 of the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/north-west-wales-cross-border-alliance.161246/page-3, I believe that is to possibly go via Middlewich with OHLE.
 

HSTEd

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Could the tunnel be dug out and the canal replaced with a short steel aqueduct?
That might allow the necessary clearance.
 

AndrewE

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Could the tunnel be dug out and the canal replaced with a short steel aqueduct? That might allow the necessary clearance.
A good idea if there is the budget for it, would allow the track to be raised above the water table too. Somehow I doubt it could happen, this isn't Greater London - or the Scottish central belt.

Second Birmingham Liverpool is back from December.

Isn’t that Saturdays only?
Looks like it if RTT has the whole story... Boo!
 

Chester1

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I was going to ask if the land around Christletom Tunnel can be lowered to allow OHLE, but I read from https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/resources/christleton-tunnel-approach that Christleton Tunnel is prone to flooding.

Is the flooding from the Shropshire Union Canal? From the maps on https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices/14270-christleton-rail-tunnel-shropshire-union-canal the railway line goes under the Shropshire Union Canal, so I am presuming the flooding is coming from the canal after heavy rain?

The problem as I see is that you have a separate tunnel path for each line as per the photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/light_steam/51314565462/. If the track is already getting flooded by heavy rain, then lowering the track could make that situation worse.

As per page 3 of the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/north-west-wales-cross-border-alliance.161246/page-3, I believe that is to possibly go via Middlewich with OHLE.

Probably the easiest solution would be to do east of the old Calverley station first and then in stages afterwards. That would spread out road closures and leave the hardest bit until last. 805s can switch between electric and diesel on the move.
 

Energy

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Track lowering could also be considered, or depending on how far out of gauge the different bridges are, insulating paint and surge arrestors, or alternatively, despite the option of raising the bridges with the existing arch having issues listed by zwk500, they don't sound impossible to solve
Track lowering is often an option but gets incredibly expensive, usually in the tens of millions while a simple bridge replacement is a couple million... unless the track already needs lifting and replaced for maintenance.

Insulating paint is a good option if the mechanical clearance is ok, part of its choice for the Severn Tunnel was that the tunnel is incredibly damp.
 

AndrewE

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Track lowering is often an option but gets incredibly expensive, usually in the tens of millions while a simple bridge replacement is a couple million
and would have a massive ongoing cost for pumping if you deliberately put the railway below the water table. The problem is that there is nowhere lower for the water to drain to...
(What the problem bits of the Crewe to Chester line really need is the trackbed raising, hence my welcome for the suggestion of opening out Christleton tunnel.)
 

zwk500

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If you say (rant) so.
I think he would care, if for no other reason than politics.
He gets to either force it through and achieve things, or he gets to score points against those who block them.
Rishi's had the option to force something through and achieve a great thing for the country, and he chose to cancel it and betray all those promises. His words and actions are contradictory and one speaks *much* louder than the other.
The Network North announcement contained nothing for rail except an out-of-date relisting of the RNEP and RYR programmes, and there is no reason to believe we will see any concrete output from any of the rail proposals that last until the final version of the pdf.
 

Meerkat

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Rishi's had the option to force something through and achieve a great thing for the country, and he chose to cancel it and betray all those promises. His words and actions are contradictory and one speaks *much* louder than the other.
The Network North announcement contained nothing for rail except an out-of-date relisting of the RNEP and RYR programmes, and there is no reason to believe we will see any concrete output from any of the rail proposals that last until the final version of the pdf.
If it really was clearly a great thing worth the cost it would still be getting done. But this is an argument for elsewhere
 
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