North Wales & North West England Infrastructure

[driver_m]

Not seen anything on here about the impending changes to the North Wales Mainline, so might be a good place to put it on here. Bi-Di signals are starting to appear just outside Flint now, as are a number of new signals between Rockcliffe and Abergele.
Also there's the changes to signalling out of Liverpool (kind of being covered in the Electrification thread) and Frodsham Curve too having work starting on it now.

(Anything else to add to what's effectively the old Manweb area?)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well I think it is safe to say, unless transport is devolved to the WAG like Scotland there is absolutely zilch chance of electrification

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think when it's finished the signals at the west end of the current NW main line work (Colwyn Bay?) will be the furthest from their controlling location than any others in the UK.
It must be 150 miles from Cardiff as the crow flies/electrons flow, and more like 200 rail miles.
Eventually the Cardiff control area (which already reaches Nantwich) will reach Holyhead.
I know it isn't Union Pacific scale, but it's big for the UK.

 

[snowball]

If current plans are eventually fully implemented, Didcot's control will reach Penzance, over 260 miles by rail, and Glasgow's will reach Thurso, over 330.

 

[driver_m]

I think when it's finished the signals at the west end of the current NW main line work (Colwyn Bay?) will be the furthest from their controlling location than any others in the UK.
It must be 150 miles from Cardiff as the crow flies/electrons flow, and more like 200 rail miles.
Eventually the Cardiff control area (which already reaches Nantwich) will reach Holyhead.
I know it isn't Union Pacific scale, but it's big for the UK.

Is Cardiff ROC open now?

Quite a few bases for what looks like signalling going in around Ditton and Halewood . A lot of cable troughing south of Runcorn too.

(Could do with LDECRexile on the case over here. He's done a cracking job of following the Chat Moss and Bolton renewals)

 

[snowball]

Is Cardiff ROC open now?

Opened in 2010 according to Wikipedia.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looking at the resignalling work on the line today, it seems bi-di signalling will operate (east of) Rhyl-Mostyn and Mostyn-(east of) Flint.
Quite a few signals are up east of about Prestatyn, but mostly just signalling base platforms further west.
I didn't see much work at the western end of the upgrade. Do we know if there is to be a cross-over/bi-di option at Llysfaen?
Rhyl seems to be retaining its through line westbound.
Many new speed limit signs are also in place, bagged over. Maybe more of the line will be passed for 90mph after the upgrade.
Holywell Jn will be a wasteland when the entire layout is reduced to the main lines.

It also struck me that, while electrification has once again vanished over the horizon, it would be expensive to wire.
The route abounds with low round-arch stone bridges and low footbridges (mainly to the beach!) throughout its length.
The only good thing is that there are few level crossings on the former (mainly) 4-track main line from Chester to Llandudno Jn.

 

[Geeves]

If current plans are eventually fully implemented, Didcot's control will reach Penzance, over 260 miles by rail, and Glasgow's will reach Thurso, over 330.

Sorry to drag off topic but is the Highland line not already controlled from Edinburgh or was it Cowlairs, (actually that might have closed already) via electronic radio token block?

Does Chester go in to the Wales ROC or the Manchester one?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does Chester go in to the Wales ROC or the Manchester one?

Manchester (as part of LNW Route).
Its area extends into Wales as far as Gresford and Connah's Quay.

 

[snowball]

[snip]

It also struck me that, while electrification has once again vanished over the horizon, it would be expensive to wire.

[snip]

The only good thing is that there are few level crossings on the former (mainly) 4-track main line from Chester to Llandudno Jn.

There's what to my untutored eye looks like a natural site for a feeder station:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2...4!1sUMXUUVszd1JNSKYRslsvbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's what to my untutored eye looks like a natural site for a feeder station:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2...4!1sUMXUUVszd1JNSKYRslsvbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Yes, that looks like Rockliffe Hall power station (now gas, used to be coal and rail-served).
Actually the area has several high-voltage power routes crossing the railway, radiating from the grid switching node at Capenhurst on the Wirral.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Not seen anything on here about the impending changes to the North Wales Mainline, so might be a good place to put it on here. Bi-Di signals are starting to appear just outside Flint now, as are a number of new signals between Rockcliffe and Abergele.
Also there's the changes to signalling out of Liverpool (kind of being covered in the Electrification thread) and Frodsham Curve too having work starting on it now.

(Anything else to add to what's effectively the old Manweb area?)

I have been past the Halton Curve junction at the Frodsham end several times this week. The old cabling that was running over the ballast at the side of the rails has now been encapsulated in shiny new cable troughs and there is new handrailing on the bridge over Halton Station Road. I have also seen Orangemen present several times in the past couple of months so it looks like preliminary works for the resignalling and new crossovers is under way.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Yes, that looks like Rockliffe Hall power station (now gas, used to be coal and rail-served).
Actually the area has several high-voltage power routes crossing the railway, radiating from the grid switching node at Capenhurst on the Wirral.

I actually think that image is at Mochdre near Colwyn Bay, I think it used to serve the Quinton Hazel Factory and the local area. Quinton Hazel was located just behind it next to the Crematorium.

 

[snowball]

I actually think that image is at Mochdre near Colwyn Bay

As can be seen by clicking the arrow at the top left.

 

[frodshamfella]

I have been past the Halton Curve junction at the Frodsham end several times this week. The old cabling that was running over the ballast at the side of the rails has now been encapsulated in shiny new cable troughs and there is new handrailing on the bridge over Halton Station Road. I have also seen Orangemen present several times in the past couple of months so it looks like preliminary works for the resignalling and new crossovers is under way.

I saw work in progress when I took the last passenger train over the curve this year a few Saturdays back

 

[Ploughman]

There's what to my untutored eye looks like a natural site for a feeder station:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2...4!1sUMXUUVszd1JNSKYRslsvbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Now you are just being silly.
When did anyone in control of a rail project actually do something totally logical?

 

[craigybagel]

Is Cardiff ROC open now?

Opened in 2010 according to Wikipedia.

Indeed it's been open a while and the massive room which will eventually signal most of Wales is slowly getting filled up with work stations. It currently controls various bits of the Valley lines and out to Bridgend via the Vale of Glamorgan line, a large part of the line from Newport up towards Gloucester, and a currently rather isolated section a long way away from all of that; Shrewsbury (exclusive) to Nantwich (inclusive).

Sorry to drag off topic but is the Highland line not already controlled from Edinburgh or was it Cowlairs, (actually that might have closed already) via electronic radio token block?

If you mean the West Highland line, it is indeed signalled by RETB, but that is controlled from Banavie near Fort William. The far north line to Thurso and the branh to Kyle use the same system, signalled from Dingwall.

 

[Railsigns]

If you mean the West Highland line, it is indeed signalled by RETB, but that is controlled from Banavie near Fort William. The far north line to Thurso and the branh to Kyle use the same system, signalled from Dingwall.

No; the Far North Line RETB is controlled from Inverness.

 

[craigybagel]

No; the Far North Line RETB is controlled from Inverness.

Apologies, I didn't read far enough when I did my research on that one....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One of the recurring topics in this area has been the issue of electrifying the Ellesmere Port-Helsby line and the proximity of Stanlow refinery.
People have stated that the refinery stops onward electrification, but can't cite reasons why or give examples of other locations where such a ban applies.

I've just got back from a trip to Sicily, and made the journey by train down the east coast to the end of the main line at Siracusa.
About 10-15km north of Siracusa, near Augusta, there is a gigantic Esso oil refinery (and all manner of other chemical works based on the oil/gas industry).
Ships unload offshore and oil is piped into the refinery.
The electrified FS line (3kV DC OHL) runs right through the middle of it, with pipelines on all sides and over the railway.
Trains run at full speed over the section.
So I fail to see what the technical issue is with the Ellesmere Port-Helsby line.
Not that anyone is going to string the wires up anytime soon, but dismissing it as "not allowed because of the refinery" seems over the top.

Apart from the main line, I can recommend a trip on the Circumetnea narrow gauge line (950mm) around the Etna volcano, which is something else for natural hazards.
It circles the volcano at about 15km range, linking many of the highest villages en route.
Parts of the line have been destroyed by lava flows over the years, and sections of it are now underground in key areas.
Etna was trailing a long ash plume this week.

 

[snowball]

Press release

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...orth-wales-railway-upgrade-project-continues/

Network Rail has thanked north Wales residents and passengers for their patience after completing essential upgrade work in Rhyl.


Normal Sunday service will resume for train passengers travelling between Llandudno Junction and Chester following the completion of track and signalling upgrade work, all part of Network Rail’s Railway Upgrade Plan to provide a bigger, better railway for passengers and businesses.

Engineers have been working on the railway in Rhyl since the end of October, replacing hundreds of metres of track as well as installing new signalling equipment. Whilst the bulk of the work is complete, engineers will carry out minor track work in the area overnight until January 2018. The new signalling equipment is set to go live in March 2018.

This latest phase of modernisation work forms part of the £50m North Wales railway upgrade project.

Kevin Roberts, senior project manager for Network Rail in Wales and Borders, said: “Our railway is vital to economic prosperity, linking people, businesses and communities. We would like to thank the local community for their patience during this improvement work, which will improve the resilience and reliability of the railway for passengers in north Wales.”

“We have been working closely with our partners Arriva Trains Wales to keep passengers moving during the major upgrade work, and will keep passengers and the local community informed as our upgrade work in north Wales continues”

The North Wales Railway Upgrade project started in January 2017 and is set to be completed by the summer of 2018.

 

[Envoy]

What would happen with the Conwy (Conway) tubular tunnel if ever electrification took place on the north Wales mainline? Presumably, the metal tubes would have to go and a new open span bridge put in place instead? Would we then get all this nonsense about it being an historical monument - as we have with the Stevenson bridge fiasco on the GWML?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What would happen with the Conwy (Conway) tubular tunnel if ever electrification took place on the north Wales mainline? Presumably, the metal tubes would have to go and a new open span bridge put in place instead? Would we then get all this nonsense about it being an historical monument - as we have with the Stevenson bridge fiasco on the GWML?

The Conwy tubular bridge is a really important heritage item, particularly now that the larger Britannia bridge at Menai was redesigned after the fire, minus tubes.
Conwy was the trial for Menai, both by Robert Stephenson. It was also the model for his even larger St Lawrence bridge in Montreal (also redesigned).
I've heard it described as the first box girder bridge.
There are plenty of metal structures that are electrified, I'm not sure why Conwy would present problems if its clearance is large enough. Speeds are low anyway.
The problematic Oxfordshire bridge is in Steventon, by the way.

 

[Envoy]

The Conwy tubular bridge is a really important heritage item, particularly now that the larger Britannia bridge at Menai was redesigned after the fire, minus tubes.
Conwy was the trial for Menai, both by Robert Stephenson. It was also the model for his even larger St Lawrence bridge in Montreal (also redesigned).
I've heard it described as the first box girder bridge.
There are plenty of metal structures that are electrified, I'm not sure why Conwy would present problems if its clearance is large enough. Speeds are low anyway.
The problematic Oxfordshire bridge is in Steventon, by the way.

Many thanks for the response. I was thinking that as the tube is metal, that arching of the electricity could take place. I realise that it is a heritage item but actually think that an open structure would be more appealing to travellers in the event that it did present a problem, should electrification ever take place.

 

[snowball]

Without seeing a diagram with dimensions, it's not possible to say how big a problem it would be, but I don't think the clearances needed are any different for a metal structure and a concrete or masonry one. Of course, a lot of lines have been successfully electrified under metal bridges.

Maybe it would help to apply a layer of insulating material to parts of the inside of the box. I've wondered the same about the Forth Bridge, where I've heard there's a potential problem of clearance between diagonal steel girders and the ends of a passing pantograph.

 

[driver_m]

Seen some of the signalling plans for the North Wales Resignalling, very surprised to see that it's mostly 2 aspect. However a lot of track does appear to have been bumped up to 90.

Also, the Autotransformer systems are supposed to be going live around Euxton and Springs Branch (Wigan) this month. (17th) and Preston - Salwick energised from the 27th.

 

[snowball]

Also, the Autotransformer systems are supposed to be going live around Euxton and Springs Branch (Wigan) this month. (17th) and Preston - Salwick energised from the 27th.

There are no wires yet west of Preston. A claim was made in the Blackpool-Manchester electrification thread a couple of weeks ago that Preston to Salwick would be energised on the 27th but was soon corrected. In fact it's only the first 714 metres going live.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Seen some of the signalling plans for the North Wales Resignalling, very surprised to see that it's mostly 2 aspect. However a lot of track does appear to have been bumped up to 90.

Also, the Autotransformer systems are supposed to be going live around Euxton and Springs Branch (Wigan) this month. (17th) and Preston - Salwick energised from the 27th.

Any indication of how this would affect journey times?

 

[driver_m]

There are no wires yet west of Preston. A claim was made in the Blackpool-Manchester electrification thread a couple of weeks ago that Preston to Salwick would be energised on the 27th but was soon corrected. In fact it's only the first 714 metres going live.

I'm quoting NR themselves. Blame them if it's duff info!

 

[driver_m]

Any indication of how this would affect journey times?

It should certainly knock a few minutes off if the 75 round holywell and mostyn are got rid of.