Many of the problems are not helped by the current dispute. The unions have so much power and say in what happens on the railway and what certain depots can and can't do. They actively block depots from working routes that it could be possible for them to do so preventing a flexible railway meaning that the travelling passenger gets the rough end of the stick despite spare crew potentially being available at neighbouring depots.
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Northern Ad hoc cancellations
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RHolmes
Member
- Joined
- 19 Jul 2019
- Messages
- 566
That’s not what happens.
Unions block and reduce other depots from working routes in order to protect the establishment (the number of turns and jobs available at a depot) in order to have a consistent provision of work and also to reduce the amount of route knowledge required by staff causing over-complexity (this can increase the chance of human error when staff work unfamiliar routes).
Neighbouring depots still continue to cross-cover with spare shifts so long as they sign the routes and traction. This isn’t blocked by the union at all.
There simply isn’t enough train crew to cover the amount of jobs available or are willing to work overtime whilst both in industrial dispute (therefore low moral) and a period of high sickness.
I think that is the COO in this case, not the CEO. CEO is normally above the MD in hierarchy.
Harpers Tate
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 May 2013
- Messages
- 1,709
I think that this post on an entirely different forum is telling to a degree. It doesn't really matter whether the root cauise is the TOC/s, the Union/s or the Government. In fact, to whatever extent this view is shared by others, it's arguably relevant to all of those interested parties.
My better half relied on the trains to get to work for a year.
She was frequently frustrated by cancelled trains out with the strikes, but they obviously made things worse.
This gave her extra motivation to pass her driving test, and now that's done, she hasn't taken the train since. Train travel is now just a bad memory.
Sympathies for people who aren't in a position to avoid UK rail travel.
It may be that quietly this is what the government wants - an "excuse" to begin closures or reductions. But I struggle to see how this is a good thing for the Unions and their members.
My better half relied on the trains to get to work for a year.
She was frequently frustrated by cancelled trains out with the strikes, but they obviously made things worse.
This gave her extra motivation to pass her driving test, and now that's done, she hasn't taken the train since. Train travel is now just a bad memory.
Sympathies for people who aren't in a position to avoid UK rail travel.
It may be that quietly this is what the government wants - an "excuse" to begin closures or reductions. But I struggle to see how this is a good thing for the Unions and their members.
Peterthegreat
Established Member
Sorry you are correct. I did in fact mean COO (Chief Operating Officer0.
TheSmiths82
Member
Yep I understand that, but they have known about this issue for a few years yet they seem to be very slow to do anything about it.
Snow1964
Established Member
Latest P-coded cancellations data for period 7 (17 Sep - 14 Oct)
Northern part canx 52, fully cancelled 1646 trains due to lack of crew, none due to lack of stock
Pushed Northerns cancellations up from a bad 5.5% to a dreadful 8.0%, which suggests total Northern cancellations nearer 5300 for 4 week period
Northern part canx 52, fully cancelled 1646 trains due to lack of crew, none due to lack of stock
Pushed Northerns cancellations up from a bad 5.5% to a dreadful 8.0%, which suggests total Northern cancellations nearer 5300 for 4 week period
lyndhurst25
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Nov 2010
- Messages
- 1,413
I’d like to sincerely thank Northern for helping me get my steps in today. I walked from Grange over Sands to Cark, with the intention of catching the train back, only to find both the 1513 and following 1616 services both cancelled, so ended up walking all the way back again. Silly me wanting to pay cash in the train, so no free day ticket as compensation for me. I get the impression that Northern can’t be relied on at all any more.
Halwynd
Member
They can't be relied on and worse, the impression offered is that they just don't care. Northern's timetable bingo ensures that you never know what services are going to be cancelled from one day to the next, although a few do seem to be consistent non-runners. One service that a colleague uses - or tries to use - is the 16:05 Southport - Manchester. It is a regular non-runner and he tells me that the following service, half and hour later, which at that time would normally be full with two loads of passengers, runs half-empty. Compared to how busy the line was just a few years ago it is clear that those who have an alternative have deserted the railway and it is only those who are not so fortunate who are left.
Back to the Furness line though.... a quick Google brings up an article in a local paper written last week:
NORTHERN has been told to improve the 'abysmal' train service in Furness.
Barrow MP Simon Fell has written to the rail operator urging the company to come up with a 'concrete' plan to improve its services for passengers. The MP said he had been inundated with complaints and demands for answers about train services operated by Northern on the Furness Line following cancellations and delays. He laid out his concerns in a letter to Craig Harrop, Northern's interim regional director for the North West. Mr Fell said: "I am writing to you regarding the abysmal rail services provided by Northern Rail which operate within the Barrow and Furness constituency. "It has become clear that there is a serious issue when it comes to the local rail services from delays to cancellations to a lack of replacement services, and something must change.
"Over the last year, my mailbox has been inundated with both complaints and demands for answers from Northern about what you will do to alleviate these pressures and transform the service into one that works to the benefit of all parties, including service operators and passengers.
"Whilst I am aware that I have already written several times in the past to Northern to get a response about the worsening situation, and whilst my office has always had a thorough response and explanation from you and the team, I am yet to see demonstration of any improvements."
He said constituents were 'tired of excuses and explanations and need to see action taken to improve this service', calling for the train company 'to provide concrete solutions to these persistent problems and outline how they are going to carry out their action plan'. "Issues on the Furness Line are brought to me week in week out by constituents, and there seems to be no movement forward," he added. "As a regular user of our trains, I am sad to see them becoming less, rather than more reliable." Passengers on the Furness Line have been seeing multiple cancellations to services, with fears that school children are being unable to reliably travel to and from school. Northern was contacted for comment but did not respond. It previously apologised for cancellations and said it was 'working hard with to improve service reliability'.
Northern urged to improve 'abysmal' train services in Furness
Barrow and Furness MP, Simon Fell, has called on Northern Trains Ltd to provide a concrete action plan outlining the changes they will implement…
I'm sure other members will note that Simon Fell is a Conservative MP and it is his own government who also need to be held accountable for mess the railway is in, at least here 'up North'.
It's now at the point were this daily game of timetable bingo needs to be replaced with an emergency timetable that offers fewer services but better reliability until Northern can get its act together.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Be careful what you wish for, these days "emergency" timetables can easily become regular ones. We used to have a half-hourly service throughout the day, but in the May 22 timetable this was dropped to an hourly one save a few in the peaks. The timetable was reintroduced in December 22 but removed again in May 23 because there wasn't demand. Yeah wasn't demand because 12 months previously people were rocking up to the station for impromptu days out only to find that half the services had disappeared. I lost count many times I heard people saying where have the trains gone, so no wonder demand was suppressed.They can't be relied on and worse, the impression offered is that they just don't care. Northern's timetable bingo ensures that you never know what services are going to be cancelled from one day to the next, although a few do seem to be consistent non-runners. One service that a colleague uses - or tries to use - is the 16:05 Southport - Manchester. It is a regular non-runner and he tells me that the following service, half and hour later, which at that time would normally be full with two loads of passengers, runs half-empty. Compared to how busy the line was just a few years ago it is clear that those who have an alternative have deserted the railway and it is only those who are not so fortunate who are left.
Back to the Furness line though.... a quick Google brings up an article in a local paper written last week:
NORTHERN has been told to improve the 'abysmal' train service in Furness.
Barrow MP Simon Fell has written to the rail operator urging the company to come up with a 'concrete' plan to improve its services for passengers. The MP said he had been inundated with complaints and demands for answers about train services operated by Northern on the Furness Line following cancellations and delays. He laid out his concerns in a letter to Craig Harrop, Northern's interim regional director for the North West. Mr Fell said: "I am writing to you regarding the abysmal rail services provided by Northern Rail which operate within the Barrow and Furness constituency. "It has become clear that there is a serious issue when it comes to the local rail services from delays to cancellations to a lack of replacement services, and something must change.
"Over the last year, my mailbox has been inundated with both complaints and demands for answers from Northern about what you will do to alleviate these pressures and transform the service into one that works to the benefit of all parties, including service operators and passengers.
"Whilst I am aware that I have already written several times in the past to Northern to get a response about the worsening situation, and whilst my office has always had a thorough response and explanation from you and the team, I am yet to see demonstration of any improvements."
He said constituents were 'tired of excuses and explanations and need to see action taken to improve this service', calling for the train company 'to provide concrete solutions to these persistent problems and outline how they are going to carry out their action plan'. "Issues on the Furness Line are brought to me week in week out by constituents, and there seems to be no movement forward," he added. "As a regular user of our trains, I am sad to see them becoming less, rather than more reliable." Passengers on the Furness Line have been seeing multiple cancellations to services, with fears that school children are being unable to reliably travel to and from school. Northern was contacted for comment but did not respond. It previously apologised for cancellations and said it was 'working hard with to improve service reliability'.
Northern urged to improve 'abysmal' train services in Furness
Barrow and Furness MP, Simon Fell, has called on Northern Trains Ltd to provide a concrete action plan outlining the changes they will implement…www.nwemail.co.uk
I'm sure other members will note that Simon Fell is a Conservative MP and it is his own government who also need to be held accountable for mess the railway is in, at least here 'up North'.
It's now at the point were this daily game of timetable bingo needs to be replaced with an emergency timetable that offers fewer services but better reliability until Northern can get its act together.
And I'm afraid to say even with a reduced timetable things don't feel any better, "due to a lack of train crew" is still heard as often in these parts and hourly services can't even be relied on now. Its got to the point that my journey planning now involves checking the scores on Realtime Trains, the TransDev app, and the FirstBus app. Yep even First Bradford / Leeds are being considered over Northern, and that is telling!
Halwynd
Member
Understood... yes, be careful what you wish for is right given your own experience. You just see how bad things are and think of ways it could be improved but as you rightly say, unintended consequences and all that. It's a sorry state of affairs.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Yes, but if, as seems the case, Northern simply do not have enough Traincrew to run their booked timetable, and that situation will not be resolved any time soon, the sensible thing has to be an emergency timetable, giving certainty (as far as is ever possible on the railway) for both passengers and staff; Just as Avanti are having to do.
Peterthegreat
Established Member
If an emergency timetable did improve things it might be better. Unfortunately here in South Yorkshire they already have. Now instead of a half hour wait if a train is cancelled it becomes an hour - or more.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he was unaware of that
Bantamzen
Established Member
Honestly at this point I'm sick and tired of the excuses, and so are a lot of punters. Its been nearly four years since the pandemic broke and things still seem to be going backwards. Given the cluster-you-know-what of a state the railways are in this country, you can hardly blame punters being p*ssed off.
Peterthegreat
Established Member
Totally agree. The rail industry (in this case whether it be Northern or the DfT) has consistently underperformed, promised jam tomorrow whilst things have worsened. No one seems to have a proper understanding of the issues and therefore things are deteriorating all over the place.
Unironically, bring back BR. Not particularly because of the state ownership but because BR was run by people who understood railways and could advocate for the right improvements.
Everything is such a fragmented mess right now and the ultimate managers in the DFT don't really seem to have any strategy behind cost cutting.
Everything is such a fragmented mess right now and the ultimate managers in the DFT don't really seem to have any strategy behind cost cutting.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
I thought that it was accepted that Directly Operated Railways (DOR), which has run Northern for well over three years now, IS run by 'people who understand railways'?
Are DOR TOCs such as LNER and Northern still subject to the same, detailed, 'input' from the DfT?
It seems to me that Northern is quite clearly 'run' by people who do not understand railways. Indeed, we were having that very discussion in a pub only last week after being forced to take a bus from Carlisle due a succession of cancelled trains on the Cumbrian Coast Line - the bus was full of locals who had to suffer this situation all the time.
Exiled Lanc
Member
- Joined
- 11 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 9
Hopefully, the situation should improve from 19th November, when the drivers new Rest Day Work agreement begins.
td97
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2017
- Messages
- 1,301
I'm not so sure. A lot of cancellations are guard shortages, plus RDW is unlikely to make much difference on Sundays which is already overtime for drivers.
Exiled Lanc
Member
- Joined
- 11 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 9
and for ex - TPE drivers at Barrow and Blackpool in the West.
It’s not going to prevent all cancellations, but it will definitely make a difference.
We were planning to meet my brother for a walk in the S Pennines today... the York-Blackpool train he was going to get has been cancelled and the NR website shows the Newcastle - Lpool ahead of it cancelled too, although RTT still thinks it will leave NCL in a few minutes time.
It seems that every single time that we arrange to meet up with people using rail travel either their or our journey is disrupted. Hopefully today can still go ahead - even if we do lose an hour of daylight for our walk.
It seems that every single time that we arrange to meet up with people using rail travel either their or our journey is disrupted. Hopefully today can still go ahead - even if we do lose an hour of daylight for our walk.
lrailadventure
Member
I've have had to become very accustomed to the York to Blackpool's being cancelled while trying to commute between York and Preston. I cannot plan what train I'm going to catch anymore until roughly 2-3 hours before the journey, even then I've had them cancelled while being physically stood next to the train, or terminated short with no warning.
I believe there are 3 cancellations out of York so far on that route today (09:22, 15:23, 17:23). No advanced tickets available in the afternoon either (normally £9.20, cheapest ticket now with onward connection to my final station is £37.40), so it's going to be a fun journey now..
Northern are cancelling hundreds of trains each day, I know between the ex-TPE depots at Barrow and Blackpool, they're around 30 conductor's short, so unless they do a TPE and drastically cut their services, this issue is going to be carrying on for quite a while.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 11,871
Three consecutive Northern trains from Barrow-in-Furness towards Lancaster cancelled this afternoon.
The 1250 ran, then the 1352 was cancelled, as was the 1447 and then the 1550 also. Next one that did run wasn't until 1651 which was only 3 coaches.
Can imagine the locals being somewhat p*ssed off about this, to say the least!
The 1250 ran, then the 1352 was cancelled, as was the 1447 and then the 1550 also. Next one that did run wasn't until 1651 which was only 3 coaches.
Can imagine the locals being somewhat p*ssed off about this, to say the least!
Kite159
Veteran Member
Three consecutive Northern trains from Barrow-in-Furness towards Lancaster cancelled this afternoon.
The 1250 ran, then the 1352 was cancelled, as was the 1447 and then the 1550 also. Next one that did run wasn't until 1651 which was only 3 coaches.
Can imagine the locals being somewhat p*ssed off about this, to say the least!
Those locals who have access to alternative forms of transport (car or bus) will simply ditch the railway, maybe not to return.
Hasn't Barrow depot lost a few members of staff to BAE Systems in Barrow?
mike57
Established Member
Yesterday afternoon (Sat 18th) there was over 2 hrs gap in the Northbound services from Hull towards Bridlington and Scarborough with no trains leaving Hull from 15.00 until the 17.20 which we were on having joined at Doncaster, with 4 consecutive services cancelled.
Needless to say the 17.20 was rammed, with some people having been waiting 2hrs.
This line is well used, with journey times competitive with driving, but if level of non service continues people will abandon the train.
I don't know what was going on beyond the standard "Issue with traincrew" excuse, but Northern really need to sort themselves out.
Needless to say the 17.20 was rammed, with some people having been waiting 2hrs.
This line is well used, with journey times competitive with driving, but if level of non service continues people will abandon the train.
I don't know what was going on beyond the standard "Issue with traincrew" excuse, but Northern really need to sort themselves out.
lrailadventure
Member
Northern are desperate for staff. They've got more staff retiring and leaving than they have joining and the government/DfT are making life more difficult by not letting them hire as many new staff as they actually need.
Between the ex-TPE depots at Barrow and Blackpool they're around 30 conductors short currently (I don't know how short they are at their other depots but I can imagine it's in line with these 2).
Unless they do a TPE and cut their services.. this is going to go on for a long time. Either way, they're going to keep successfully deterring people from rail travel.