Northern admit 15% of Penalty Fares incorrect on grounds of ticket machine faults

[Starmill]

Quite a statistic from the recent reporting in the Yorkshire Post that 15% of Northern's Penalty Fares are issued to passengers who couldn't use a ticket vending machine due to a fault. Given Northern say that conductors and revenue protection staff are equipped with up-to-the-quarter-hour information on this I would have thought an error rare of no more than about 1% would be acceptable.

And what if a ticket machine is ‘not working’? It’s a common excuse given when passengers are challenged, but conductors are equipped with real-time data on machines that are out of order, updated every 15 minutes. If a case ends up in court, this information can be produced again, and the supplier of the machine can provide a history of its operational activity and ticket sales to the second. Customers can independently appeal their penalty fare, and Mr Wade believes around 15 per cent of cases are withdrawn because a ticket machine was proven to be out of action.

A day in court with Northern as prosecutions of rail fare evaders in Yorkshire increase to 1,200 a month

The young woman appearing before Doncaster’s magistrates was adamant she shouldn’t be in court at all.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Unfortunately I think this says a lot regarding the performance and reliability of the ticket vending machines themselves, and the accuracy of the live information. I have to wonder also if the true proportion is actually slightly higher here, because some people will pay the Penalty Fare right away rather than dealing with the hassle of the appeal. Finally perhaps the quarter hour time is simply too long and it needs to be refreshed every 30 or 60 seconds, not 15 minutes.

 

[Lampshade]

While a machine may not be “out of order” according to the system, it still may be malfunctioning for the user e.g. card reader fault.

I’d video myself trying to buy the ticket and flat out refuse to pay any PFs.

 

[Haywain]

reporting in the Yorkshire Post that 15% of Northern's Penalty Fares are issued to passengers who couldn't use a ticket vending machine due to a fault.

That's one interpretation. It could equally be that it means that 15% of appeals are granted for that reason, which is a very different figure overall.

 

[Trackman]

While a machine may not be “out of order” according to the system, it still may be malfunctioning for the user e.g. card reader fault.

I’d video myself trying to buy the ticket and flat out refuse to pay any PFs.

Also when the TVM is covered in spit or whatever or if there is a cosmetic problem with the TVM.
Yes, as the quote says, video evidence if have an issue.

That's one interpretation. It could equally be that it means that 15% of appeals are granted for that reason, which is a very different figure overall.

That's the way I read it, they cannot check on the fly so to speak when you are stopped (or can they?)

 

[MrJeeves]

they cannot check on the fly

conductors are equipped with real-time data on machines that are out of order, updated every 15 minutes

I'm not really sure how else this could be interpreted

 

[Starmill]

That's one interpretation. It could equally be that it means that 15% of appeals are granted for that reason, which is a very different figure overall.

I did intinially wonder if that's what they were getting at, but then it uses the language that Penalty Fares are "withdrawn". Surely they would have said appeals are successful if that were all they were measuring, and they're including cases where the customer complains, or refuses payment and the case goes to court, but doesn't use the appeals process, and they then choose to cancel the PF. Unless they're excluding any cases dealt with by appeal or paid at all, and only ones that go to court? That would be even more confusing a statistic to offer.

 

[Haywain]

I did intinially wonder if that's what they were getting at, but then it uses the language that Penalty Fares are "withdrawn". Surely they would have said appeals are successful if that were all they were measuring, and they're including cases where the customer complains or goes to court, but doesn't use the appeals process, and they then choose to cancel the PF.

A the sentence starts by mentioning appeals, I've taken it to continue referring to them. As I said, different interpretations which really render the figure meaningless.

 

[gray1404]

Taking the title of this thread at face value, this in itself is enough for Northern to have their penalty fare scheme suspended. Though I could imagine the rogue that it is going straight to reporting for prosecution.

 

[Halwynd]

While a machine may not be “out of order” according to the system, it still may be malfunctioning for the user e.g. card reader fault.

I’d video myself trying to buy the ticket and flat out refuse to pay any PFs.

Very true. I know from my own recent experience that Northern ticket machines can report back as working when in fact they are not. At my local station (Gathurst) there was a long-standing card reader fault, yet I never saw it listed on Journeycheck as faulty. If it wasn't listed on Journeycheck as faulty - Northern were initially unaware of the fault - I think it reasonable to assume that neither was it listed in the real time information provided to Conductors - information that the article states may be used as evidence in Court, along with information from the supplier of the machines; 'a history of its operational activity and ticket sales to the second'. Well, at Gathurst the supplier of these machines didn't even know that the card reader module had a faulty cable that rendered the otherwise working machine inoperative. Perhaps if the supplier had been monitoring the 'operational activity and ticket sales to the second' it might just have noticed the problem long before it had to be reported by a passenger?

Except on one occasion when I risked it - and thankfully I was sold a ticket onboard by a friendly Guard - when the machine didn't work I decided not to travel so as to avoid the potential of being disbelieved, a Penalty Fare and/or prosecution. I returned home and used my car instead. One or two other members, no doubt with good intent, advised that if I was PF'd I could appeal and everything should be OK. Well, here we are - Northern seemingly confident that their systems are accurately reporting TVM faults. With the greatest respect, I'm very glad I was never tempted to take their advice!

My own solution to the problem has been very simple - I no longer travel by train.

 

[Starmill]

One or two other members, no doubt with good intent, advised that if I was PF'd I could appeal and everything should be OK. Well, here we are - Northern seemingly confident that their systems are accurately reporting TVM faults. With the greatest respect, I'm very glad I was never tempted to take their advice!

My own solution to the problem has been very simple - I no longer travel by train.

I personally would say that Northern having to concede at least some cases probably is evidence that the advice was accurate. However, such advice comes with a health warning that you can only be confident of this course working out if you're willing to put the necessary time in to deal with appeals or defend yourself at court. In the other thread I saw this advice was given with that caveat. As such I don't think anyone can argue for you or anyone else using Northern rather than choosing to find an easier mode of transport such as your car, unless it's on the understanding that a dispute is likely.

Incidentally it probably suits Minsters very well for you not to use Northern any more. Fewer people using them means fewer people to complain about the cuts to services they're rolling out, and more revenue for them when you buy more motor fuel.

 

[fandroid]

Not clear from this article is whether Northern were still acting outside the Penalty Fare Regulations by prosecuting passengers who had appealed a Penalty Fare Notice and had their appeals rejected. It would have been a far more interesting session if the magistrate's court had included @KirkstallOne explaining to the justices how Northern were abusing the system and how the court's checks were not picking this up.

The first case mentioned, that of the Military Police Officer, only apparently got to the court due to a mix-up of addresses. She sounds like someone who would definitely have benefitted from our advice.

 

[Halwynd]

I personally would say that Northern having to concede at least some cases probably is evidence that the advice was accurate. However, such advice comes with a health warning that you can only be confident of this course working out if you're willing to put the necessary time in to deal with appeals or defend yourself at court. In the other thread I saw this advice was given with that caveat. As such I don't think anyone can argue for you or anyone else using Northern rather than choosing to find an easier mode of transport such as your car, unless it's on the understanding that a dispute is likely.

Incidentally it probably suits Minsters very well for you not to use Northern any more. Fewer people using them means fewer people to complain about the cuts to services they're rolling out, and more revenue for them when you buy more motor fuel.

A perfectly pragmatic viewpoint.

Unfortunately I just want to nip into town for a couple of hours to do a bit of shopping. I'm not the type who then wants to spend the next few weeks preparing an appeal or a defence for a Court appearance as a result of a meeting with an over-zealous gateline ticket inspector for the sake of a fare of a few quid.

To be fair, I don't really need to use the train. But as a lifelong rail enthusiast I like to travel by train. I enjoy a pleasant walk to the station, avoid any traffic problems, I don't contribute to road pollution and I don't need to find or pay for parking at my destination. I am an honest person and always pay my fare - all the things you are supposed to do. I just wanted the ruddy ticket machine to work - hopefully one day it will - but until then, or until Northern start to give more benefit of the doubt in these situations, I'm afraid my journeys will remain by car only.

 

[Starmill]

A perfectly pragmatic viewpoint.

Unfortunately I just want to nip into town for a couple of hours to do a bit of shopping. I'm not the type who then wants to spend the next few weeks preparing an appeal or a defence for a Court appearance as a result of a meeting with an over-zealous gateline ticket inspector for the sake of a fare of a few quid.

To be fair, I don't really need to use the train. But as a lifelong rail enthusiast I like to travel by train. I enjoy a pleasant walk to the station, avoid any traffic problems, I don't contribute to road pollution and I don't need to find or pay for parking at my destination. I am an honest person and always pay my fare - all the things you are supposed to do. I just wanted the ruddy ticket machine to work - hopefully one day it will - but until then, or until Northern start to give more benefit of the doubt in these situations, I'm afraid my journeys will remain by car only.

I don't think Northern will change their position any time soon. If you arrive at a gated station on a Northern train and don't have a ticket, a dispute is likely to occur. How good of a reason or not you have for not having one doesn't change that unfortunately.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Not clear from this article is whether Northern were still acting outside the Penalty Fare Regulations by prosecuting passengers who had appealed a Penalty Fare Notice and had their appeals rejected. It would have been a far more interesting session if the magistrate's court had included @KirkstallOne explaining to the justices how Northern were abusing the system and how the court's checks were not picking this up.

The first case mentioned, that of the Military Police Officer, only apparently got to the court due to a mix-up of addresses. She sounds like someone who would definitely have benefitted from our advice.

Fairly sure they are. I have sent a letter of complaint directly to the managing director and the head of legal outlining the systematic unlawful behaviour of the prosecutions team.

If the head of legal doesn’t act she can expect a complaint to be lodged with the SRA who take these matters very seriously.

 

[toffeedanish]

My own solution to the problem has been very simple - I no longer travel by train.

My own solution has also been very simple - I obtain a Promise to Pay ticket.

(I'm sure it is possible that a ticket machine could have a printing fault *and* a payment fault *and* that these are not automatically reported, but this must be rare enough to not worry about).

 

[Halwynd]

My own solution has also been very simple - I obtain a Promise to Pay ticket.

(I'm sure it is possible that a ticket machine could have a printing fault *and* a payment fault *and* that these are not automatically reported, but this must be rare enough to not worry about).

I've had over 12 months of intermittent payment card problems with the machine at Gathurst. Faulty cable eventually diagnosed, replaced and I then used it successfully twice. On the third occasion the screen said the machine was not working, so it wasn't possible to obtain a PTP (even if I was carrying cash with me, which I was not).

The reliability of the TVM at Gathurst has been appalling. If there wasn't the threat of a Penalty Fare I would just pay at my destination as I used to do several years ago before the ticket machine was installed, but these days it just cannot be assumed that you will meet a reasonable and understanding ticket inspector at the destination gateline.

If these machines or PTP vouchers work for you then that is great, but the bottom line for me is that the machine at Gathurst is not fit for purpose and I'm not going to put myself in a position where I could receive a Penalty Fare or a threat of Court action. Rail travel for me is descretionary, I don't need the hassle, and that is all there is to it.

Anyway, I'm sure other members have heard quite enough about the TVM at Gathurst so I'll leave it there - but thank you once again to those who have previously offered constructive comments and advice.

 

[GoneSouth]

I would have zero trust in Northern processing an appeal fairly or appropriately. Judging by some of the earlier posts, we are creating a culture of fear to travel on our railways which is just ridiculous, we are not nazi Germany or a communist dictatorship. How depressing!

They need to smarten up their procedures, not bully everyone into submission, disgraceful!

 

[KirkstallOne]

Completely agree with the sentiments expressed. I have the choice between cycling down the canal or getting the train in to work. My experience being treated as a criminal by Northern and wasting a huge amount of time and money arguing with them has definitely tipped the balance towards cycling more often, it’s just simple economic theory and the manager quoted in the article should give their head a wobble if they think super aggressive revenue protection policies are a net positive compared to a more balanced (and lawful) approach.

 

[randyrippley]

That's one interpretation. It could equally be that it means that 15% of appeals are granted for that reason, which is a very different figure overall.

That's the way I understood it as well

 

[Tallguy]

The TVM on the platform 3 entrance at High Wycombe station is constantly going wrong. There is only 1 machine and the ticket booth for that entrance is almost always closed (and will be permanently soon). I have witnessed the TVM sell a ticket to the person in front of me, then cease working and around 5 mins later it’s sorted itself out and re-starts selling tickets. I have meantime used the intercom to the main ticket office on the offer side of the station and they just say pay at your destination. Would that brief outage be recorded as a fault and logged with on train ticket checkers? Think I may have to get and video when that happens again. And Chiltern need to install a second TVM at that entrance to High Wycombe and make sure they actually work….. or better still staff the ticket booth.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not really sure how else this could be interpreted

So if my train is due to depart at 12:30, I might turn up at 12:23 needing to buy a ticket. The machine reports itself as working at 12:20 and 12:35. However, the signal or power goes down for 12 minutes between those times. I experience a non-functional ticket machine but the RPI at another stations says it's reported as working so you should have purchased a ticket.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I would have zero trust in Northern processing an appeal fairly or appropriately.

The appeals process is supposedly independent of the individual TOCs but as can be seen from posts on this forum they are unreasonably obtuse, often requiring the full three rounds of appeals and a legalistic outlining of the regulations, cross referenced to the pertinent details of the case, before an appeal is allowed. How the ‘man on the clapham omnibus’ is supposed to navigate this is beyond me.

Not sure what the contractual arrangements are for this service, if anyone knows then please do share, but their interests seem to be aligned with the TOCs and is worthy of separate scrutiny to the TOCs behaviour. Of course now the penalties have been increased to £100 this scrutiny is all the more important.

 

[Ken_Ilworth]

I'm disappointed with the quote from "Mr Wade": "...You should only really buy from a conductor if you are paying in cash or can’t use a machine. The conductor can only sell you a full-price ticket and it is cheaper to buy in advance. The rules do allow for discretion and it is up to the judgement of the conductor.”
Fully appreciate the YP may have sanitised the actual statement, but most of that is simply not factually correct..

 

[Elecman]

The Northern TVMs take an inordinate amount of time to restart and reboot after a power outage

 

[Ken_Ilworth]

The Northern TVMs take an inordinate amount of time to restart and reboot after a power outage

Do we know the actual downtime from a reboot? As alluded to earlier in this thread by @northwichcat , I wonder if there is a feasible scenario where reboot cycles and "15-minute reporting" are perfectly in sync, but a machine could in fact be out-of-order for up to 56 minutes per hour?

 

[vinnym70]

The environment I work in is crazily sensitive to technology failures - they can cost millions in a stupidly short space of time either in direct revenue loss of financial penalties from regulatory bodies.
Yet, the reality is all technology fails and it takes some time to resolve issues when they occur.

I'm taking pics or videos on my phone to cover ticketing issues in the same way as I would to justify delay repay.

The only time that I occasioned upon an issue, the inspector on the train knew about the issue but was still wandering around the train asking for tickets, rather than offering help to folks who couldn't purchase a ticket due to a known issue which would have been the way I might have tackled the situation.

 

[fandroid]

I'm disappointed with the quote from "Mr Wade": "...You should only really buy from a conductor if you are paying in cash or can’t use a machine. The conductor can only sell you a full-price ticket and it is cheaper to buy in advance. The rules do allow for discretion and it is up to the judgement of the conductor.”
Fully appreciate the YP may have sanitised the actual statement, but most of that is simply not factually correct..

Northern may have instructed their conductors to only sell full-price tickets. That wouldn't surprise me. Neither would some conductors ignoring that instruction surprise me.

 

[185]

Some years ago, I had a post removed for naming Jason Wade, as at the time a similar scenario which questioned the integrity of their prosecutions was being raised on here.

Now,

Mr Wade believes around 15 per cent of cases are withdrawn

that to me suggests

- if they are passing the appeals process but being withdrawn as court cases, as a business they are not fit to undertake a penalty fare scheme given their cheap machines are awful, unreliable, and sending false data eg. a frozen screen or vandalism showing no fault.

- The fact that Northern's Revenue officers (from 2013 onwards) were paid X minutes overtime for each TIR/prosecution report is an unforgivable one - NO operator should pay commission on the number of TIR reports submitted - it encourages stupidity and removes sensible discretion (based on information from their former supervisor under STM).

 

[30907]

Some years ago, I had a post removed for naming Jason Wade, as at the time a similar scenario which questioned the integrity of their prosecutions was being raised on here.

Now,

that to me suggests

- if they are passing the appeals process but being withdrawn as court cases,

That would indeed be a serious matter, but as the previous discussion shows, it's not at all clear what 15% is a percentage of.

 

[Haywain]

Some years ago, I had a post removed for naming Jason Wade,

If, at the time, his name was not in the public domain as it is now it seens only right that your post was removed.