Northern cancellations getting worse

[IanXC]

Agreed, half hourly pre covid stoppers between Sheffield & Doncaster, reduced to hourly before reduced further to 2 hour gaps with one diagram missing.

No doubt the trams are popular from Rotherham Central (also might be cheaper as well), considering in some hours there are no Northern trains calling in one direction

There is a question over whether all the pre Covid services can be reasonably accommodated on this stretch of railway. If CrossCountry aren't coming back then maybe, but otherwise the second stopper is the obvious candidate for removal.

 

[Watershed]

There is a question over whether all the pre Covid services can be reasonably accommodated on this stretch of railway. If CrossCountry aren't coming back then maybe, but otherwise the second stopper is the obvious candidate for removal.

5tph, even with a mix of calling patterns, is perfectly achievable and worked for years. The continuing lack of services has nothing to do with performance concerns; it is everything to do with cutbacks and crew shortages.

 

[IanXC]

5tph, even with a mix of calling patterns, is perfectly achievable and worked for years. The continuing lack of services has nothing to do with performance concerns; it is everything to do with cutbacks and crew shortages.

"For years" - it certainly only came about in May 2018 which didn't work and was split at Doncaster as a result, the resulting structure before Covid was also very fragile. I'm not saying that it isn't to do with crew shortages, but if there are insufficient crew to run everything as per pre Covid then, in South Yorkshire, this is the obvious service to loose.

 

[johnnychips]

The withdrawn stopper would get you from Doncaster to Sheffield before the following fast. Now the remaining stopper departs at xx35 and is overtaken by the xx42. A similar situation happens at Sheffield, effectively reducing the services to two tph. This gives a 20-40 minute split at Doncaster and a 15-45 split at Sheffield.

If it is going down to one stopper per hour, the old path needs reinstating.

 

[Kite159]

"For years" - it certainly only came about in May 2018 which didn't work and was split at Doncaster as a result, the resulting structure before Covid was also very fragile. I'm not saying that it isn't to do with crew shortages, but if there are insufficient crew to run everything as per pre Covid then, in South Yorkshire, this is the obvious service to loose.

Wasn't the split at Doncaster more to do with having the previous Sheffield - Scunthorpe/Hull stoppers crossing over the ECML on the flat and to make use of the new platform 0?

 

[IanXC]

Wasn't the split at Doncaster more to do with having the previous Sheffield - Scunthorpe/Hull stoppers crossing over the ECML on the flat and to make use of the new platform 0?

Pre May 2018 there was a Sheffield-Scunthorpe linkage, at May 2018 that became a Sheffield-Hull stopper, which was a performance nightmare, partly due to the crossing of the ECML, but also because of how congested Meadowhall - Sheffield was particularly. This was then split giving us what we had pre Covid.

Platform zero was opened in December 2016. Before that the pre May 2018 Hull Doncaster stopper used to terminate in p1 and go into the sidings ahead. Zero was about avoiding that rather than reducing crossing moves.

The withdrawn stopper would get you from Doncaster to Sheffield before the following fast. Now the remaining stopper departs at xx35 and is overtaken by the xx42. A similar situation happens at Sheffield, effectively reducing the services to two tph. This gives a 20-40 minute split at Doncaster and a 15-45 split at Sheffield.

If it is going down to one stopper per hour, the old path needs reinstating.

The previous Doncaster terminator was originally run, however this was amended to the Adwick to provide 2tph between Doncaster and Adwick. Running the Adwick service at the time of the Doncaster terminator results in it running almost exactly the same time as the Leeds service.

 

[JD2168]

I remember for a time the Sheffield to Scunthorpe stopper was linked onto the Sheffield to Lincoln stopper route which hardly ran to time until it was split again. Some also did this when it went to Hull which made 2 per hour Sheffield to Hull.

 

[johntea]

I notice Northern have now published their delay repay data (scroll down)

Northern Rail

northernrailway.force.com

Not sure what happened with the 1/5 to 28/5 figure presumably an error there but it looks like they’re paying out an average of £70,000 - £80,000 a month in claims, not sure how that compares with other operators

Curiously 26/6 to 23/7 had the most claims (18,009) but the lowest payout (£66,193)

 

[Kite159]

I notice Northern have now published their delay repay data (scroll down)

Northern Rail

northernrailway.force.com

Not sure what happened with the 1/5 to 28/5 figure presumably an error there but it looks like they’re paying out an average of £70,000 - £80,000 a month in claims, not sure how that compares with other operators

Curiously 26/6 to 23/7 had the most claims (18,009) but the lowest payout (£66,193)

And I presume that includes the delay repay Northern avoids paying out due to the "Timetable of the day" rule.

 

[py_megapixel]

I still don't see how they can claim anything about the "published timetable of the day" when they aren't actually publishing a "timetable of the day". There's NRE, but there's no (public-facing) way of establishing what that said at 22:00 on a particular date as it's updated in real time.

 

[GordonT]

I still don't see how they can claim anything about the "published timetable of the day" when they aren't actually publishing a "timetable of the day". There's NRE, but there's no (public-facing) way of establishing what that said at 22:00 on a particular date as it's updated in real time.

We seem to have reached an unprecedented state of near anarchy in the way this and some other TOCs are conducting themselves.

 

[Iskra]

A few cancellations and alterations around Sheffield this morning. A Sheffield -Huddersfield cancelled, Nottingham-Appleby starting short at Sheffield this morning and an upcoming Leeds-Nottingham cancelled already.

 

[syorksdeano]

I notice Northern have now published their delay repay data (scroll down)

Northern Rail

northernrailway.force.com

Not sure what happened with the 1/5 to 28/5 figure presumably an error there but it looks like they’re paying out an average of £70,000 - £80,000 a month in claims, not sure how that compares with other operators

Curiously 26/6 to 23/7 had the most claims (18,009) but the lowest payout (£66,193)

Would those that claim the complimentary tickets be included in this amount, as it seems rather low

 

[Iskra]

A few cancellations and alterations around Sheffield this morning. A Sheffield -Huddersfield cancelled, Nottingham-Appleby starting short at Sheffield this morning and an upcoming Leeds-Nottingham cancelled already.

The Nottingham-Appleby got cancelled at Leeds too. And there are more cancellations at Leeds.

 

[ComUtoR]

Curiously 26/6 to 23/7 had the most claims (18,009) but the lowest payout (£66,193)

Period 4 has 14,606 but paid out over a million quid. Looking at the table for compensation it suggests that there was a high payout in delays that would have fallen into +60 minutes.

 

[317 forever]

I posted a Northern Delay Repay form on September 28th for a delay 10 days earlier. I have not received an email acknowledgement yet alone a voucher or anything.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Period 4 has 14,606 but paid out over a million quid. Looking at the table for compensation it suggests that there was a high payout in delays that would have fallen into +60 minutes.

That is obviously a typo. £1,000,000 would work out at about £70 / claim. From the claims for the other months they have clearly put in a superfluous comma and it should be £137,318 instead of £1,37,318.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Arrived at Manchester Airport this morning to find the sum total of trains was a Northern shuttle every two hours. Staff happily watching the tourists buy tickets from the TVMs without telling them about the lack of trains.

Is this what Northern and TPE have become?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arrived at Manchester Airport this morning to find the sum total of trains was a Northern shuttle every two hours. Staff happily watching the tourists buy tickets from the TVMs without telling them about the lack of trains.

Is this what Northern and TPE have become?

Realtime Trains disagrees for most of the day. However it does seem there was a 2 hour gap from just before 11 to just before 1. An odd gap - anyone know why?

 

[Watershed]

Realtime Trains disagrees for most of the day. However it does seem there was a 2 hour gap from just before 11 to just before 1. An odd gap - anyone know why?

"P-coded" cancellations, I should have thought - i.e. turns that were uncovered the night before, so the associated services were "deleted" from the timetable. Timetablehistory.com may give a clue.

 

[43096]

"P-coded" cancellations, I should have thought - i.e. turns that were uncovered the night before, so the associated services were "deleted" from the timetable. Timetablehistory.com may give a clue.

Correct. If you use the “detailed filtering options” in RTT and select the “CAN” option you get the P-coded cancellations as well. Cancellations using this shows the pre-planned cancellations as opposed to the on-the-day “customer facing” cancellations.

This link gives the time period in question:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Manchester Airport between 1100 and 1300 on 23/10/2022

Train information at Manchester Airport between 1100 and 1300 on 23/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Tetchytyke]

Realtime Trains disagrees for most of the day. However it does seem there was a 2 hour gap from just before 11 to just before 1. An odd gap - anyone know why?

That figures, my flight from IOM landed at 1015 and I just missed the train at 11am. I was more unimpressed about how there didn't appear to be ticket acceptance on Metrolink and the station staff were not warning people at the TVMs.

I was only going to the city centre so took the tram.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That figures, my flight from IOM landed at 1015 and I just missed the train at 11am. I was more unimpressed about how there didn't appear to be ticket acceptance on Metrolink and the station staff were not warning people at the TVMs.

The latter is certainly very bad - it wouldn't have taken much to sellotape a note to them. (I assume they aren't planner based, as if they were people would know what was on offer?)

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Until recently I thought, as a commuter between Elsecar and Leeds/Sheffield my trains have been reasonably reliable compared to Northern's services on the other side of the Pennines.

But in the past week or so reliability has nosedived; attached is the information screen for my local station this evening. There's no blockage on the line or external factors, it's all done to "a shortage of train crew".

 

[skyhigh]

Until recently I thought, as a commuter between Elsecar and Leeds/Sheffield my trains have been reasonably reliable compared to Northern's services on the other side of the Pennines.

But in the past week or so reliability has nosedived; attached is the information screen for my local station this evening. There's no blockage on the line or external factors, it's all done to "a shortage of train crew".

If it's any use the 22.28 and 22.02 have been reinstated. But that really is poor.

 

[Killingworth]

Only 1 in 3 Northern trains ran on the Hope Valley stopping service between Sheffield and Manchester today - but it had 6 coaches. Very few TPE trains and some EMR services were too full for all to board

 

[Bletchleyite]

Loads of cancellations from Liverpool. Does strike me that an emergency timetable is needed, again.

 

[td97]

Current estimate is w/c 30th October for drivers links to drop into place.

Let's see how cancellations go this week. Presently 2 on journeycheck, and I cannot find a single pre-10pm cancellation if I search a few major stations on RTT.

 

[danny127]

Loads of cancellations from Liverpool. Does strike me that an emergency timetable is needed, again.

They're already on a reduced timetable and still don't manage to run them. I've just been forced to get a relocation for work because Northern cause me too many problem and it isn't sustainable at all. Glad I don't pay for travel. I feel sorry for those paying for this service.

Also, what it the deal with Sundays? Can anybody enlighten me? Leaving work yesterday my train was the only one passing my station in 5, yeah, FIVE hours. 2 before and 2 after cancelled. seriously? It isn't as if it is a quiet router either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're already on a reduced timetable and still don't manage to run them.

Then they should reduce it further.

A train every 2 hours that runs like clockwork is better than one every half hour that cancels randomly.