Northern cancellations getting worse

[ModernRailways]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere in the thread but from a cursory glance it looks like most of these issues are focused more down Manchester and the surrounding areas?
For example, here in Newcastle Northern is pretty good and even a quick check on RTT shows the cancellations are few and far between here. Considering it is all the same TOC it seems strange that they can manage themselves well in one location but in another it just falls apart. Granted, we do also have a lot less services up here which could always play a role.

 

[185]

Northern on Saturday listed the last train of the night on Sunday as 'running'.

Sometime in the night, they deleted it. There was no mention anywhere on their website of this, no service disruption, no journey alerts - nothing. Two people operating their customer service phone line said this was now a planned cancellation and as such they will not be putting a bus on. Utterly oblivious to their clear failings of the very basics of running a railway.

- this was at odds with a statement made by Nicholas Charles Donovan, their Managing Director who two years ago replied to the then rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris and pledged to "restore the last services or in the rare instance we cannot run the last train a bus will be provided".

This planned cancellation nonsense should be a minimum of seven days prior and must NEVER be the last train of the night without a bus replacement being put on.

 

[TUC]

Northern on Saturday listed the last train of the night on Sunday as 'running'.

Sometime in the night, they deleted it. There was no mention anywhere on their website of this, no service disruption, no journey alerts - nothing. Two people operating their customer service phone line said this was now a planned cancellation and as such they will not be putting a bus on. Utterly oblivious to their clear failings of the very basics of running a railway.

- this was at odds with a statement made by Nicholas Charles Donovan, their Managing Director who two years ago replied to the then rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris and pledged to "restore the last services or in the rare instance we cannot run the last train a bus will be provided".

This planned cancellation nonsense should be a minimum of seven days prior and must NEVER be the last train of the night without a bus replacement being put on.

That approach does not just lack competence. It lacks integrity.

 

[yorksrob]

But the pressure is there, not just health and education - social care, benefits, pensions.


That may well be your opinion, but a large percentage of voters have, have access to or aspire to cars which are seen as a more desirable alternative, for all but certain journeys. This will have an effect on the decisions of priorities.

It is, but again it's highly unlikely that we would be in a position where everyone always has access to motor transport.

I would argue that for a small, densley populated country like this one, it would be highly undesirable for everyone to have access to motor transport due to the congestion/additional road infrastructure that would be required.

That means that public transport will always be vital.

The word ‘essential’ is tricky when it comes to government spending. I’d suggest anything concerned with a possible life or death situation (health, defence, security, police, welfare etc) would be deemed far more essential, if push comes to shove, than rail. Rightly or wrongly, there is only so much government budget (if managed properly) and railways will always be competing for funds in the ‘other’ section.

Education, however, isn't a life or death situation, yet it is deemed essential.

Loads of people paying £1 for train travel isn't a sustainable transport model, unless the government of the time decides that extra subsidy is an acceptable model (spoiler: they don't). There is limited "value of passengers" if they don't pay that much (unfortunately). Also too many cheap passengers - without an uplift in passengers - leads to overcrowding, which isn't going to give those people much "value". That being said, few TOCs would list 6 subsequent cancellations and would try their best to have them spread.

Obviously there's a perfect equilibrium between demand, supply and pricing to get the maximum revenue but it is in constant flux and there are pricing and revenue managers who are experts at this sort of thing with a vast array of data at their fingertips.

I as much as many on these forums would love to see big advances and improvements in staffing, infrastructure, systems and customer service but I am also a realist of the framework the railway industry (and indeed many sectors) sit within.

I agree. I think there is far too much emphasis on gimmicky offers, rather than having fares that are consistently competitive to people. I would start by introducing a national railcard which would enable people of working age across the country, to make a sunk contribution to the system and access discounted fares which, whilst not the gimmicky one pound offers, will still offer a sense of value to passengers.

Getting the railway system we have working properly would be a good start, before embarking on hefty infrastructure projects.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere in the thread but from a cursory glance it looks like most of these issues are focused more down Manchester and the surrounding areas?
For example, here in Newcastle Northern is pretty good and even a quick check on RTT shows the cancellations are few and far between here. Considering it is all the same TOC it seems strange that they can manage themselves well in one location but in another it just falls apart. Granted, we do also have a lot less services up here which could always play a role.

My take on it is that Northern have taken a different approach in different areas, they effectively abandoned the service on a number of non-Leeds based routes in/around Yorkshire , or made them “bus replacement” or cut back to every couple of hours rather than once or twice or hour (Bradford- Huddersfield, Huddersfield-Castleford, local services from Doncaster towards Scunthorpe/ Hull/ Sheffield) whereas the cuts west of the Pennines have been less severe but much shorter notice, so potentially the impact is seen differently (it’s one thing if you’ve just abandoned Kirk Sandall, but a different situation if you cut a late night train in greater Manchester with just a few hours warning

This planned cancellation nonsense should be a minimum of seven days prior and must NEVER be the last train of the night without a bus replacement being put on.

Good to have the unaccountable railway back again, nobody is going to make them honour any “franchise” commitments or post a fine or have at financial means to encourage/punish them… be careful what you wish for, everyone…

 

[Watershed]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere in the thread but from a cursory glance it looks like most of these issues are focused more down Manchester and the surrounding areas?
For example, here in Newcastle Northern is pretty good and even a quick check on RTT shows the cancellations are few and far between here. Considering it is all the same TOC it seems strange that they can manage themselves well in one location but in another it just falls apart. Granted, we do also have a lot less services up here which could always play a role.

A lot of it is down to the West vs East side traincrew terms & conditions, which still differ, stemming from the merger of First North Western and Northern Spirit/ATN.

Sundays unfortunately remain outside the working week on the West side.

 

[LYuen]

Loads of people paying £1 for train travel isn't a sustainable transport model, unless the government of the time decides that extra subsidy is an acceptable model (spoiler: they don't). There is limited "value of passengers" if they don't pay that much (unfortunately). Also too many cheap passengers - without an uplift in passengers - leads to overcrowding, which isn't going to give those people much "value". That being said, few TOCs would list 6 subsequent cancellations and would try their best to have them spread.

Obviously there's a perfect equilibrium between demand, supply and pricing to get the maximum revenue but it is in constant flux and there are pricing and revenue managers who are experts at this sort of thing with a vast array of data at their fingertips.

I as much as many on these forums would love to see big advances and improvements in staffing, infrastructure, systems and customer service but I am also a realist of the framework the railway industry (and indeed many sectors) sit within.

The difficulty of creating a sustainable model is that driving is cheap in the north. Given that parking is free, solo driving is cheaper that a single or return TransPennine Express ticket, while 2 people share a car is also cheaper than 2 Northern adult ticket.

 

[skyhigh]

Given that parking is free,

That's rather a blanket statement.

 

[david l]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere in the thread but from a cursory glance it looks like most of these issues are focused more down Manchester and the surrounding areas?
For example, here in Newcastle Northern is pretty good and even a quick check on RTT shows the cancellations are few and far between here. Considering it is all the same TOC it seems strange that they can manage themselves well in one location but in another it just falls apart. Granted, we do also have a lot less services up here which could always play a role.

There's apparently been a particular problem since May on Northern (west side) that somehow didn't match drivers hours or diagrams with the actual trains (from what I have been told). Has resulted in crews being available but not necessarily at the right time or in the right place.
Consultations round the table (now that seems a good idea, perhaps it'll catch on elsewhere) took place and apparently now resolved but will take a little while to fully resolve, as there is some re-working to be done. Also understand that there is no finance involved. Over to you, Avanti & TPE..........

 

[Bikeman78]

Northern on Saturday listed the last train of the night on Sunday as 'running'.

Sometime in the night, they deleted it. There was no mention anywhere on their website of this, no service disruption, no journey alerts - nothing. Two people operating their customer service phone line said this was now a planned cancellation and as such they will not be putting a bus on. Utterly oblivious to their clear failings of the very basics of running a railway.

That is one of the worst aspects of the current system. The train won't show as cancelled on websites (apart from RTT) or station departure screens. So far as the planned timetable of the day is concerned, it never existed. It's all very well saying you have to accept the delay, or travel earlier, but there are many scenarios where planned journeys become impossible. The offer of a full refund isn't much help if the intended journey was heading for home. Do many TOCs pull this stunt? TfW will provide a bus or taxi for last or infrequent services that are planned cancellations.

 

[43066]

Realistically, almost no one reads terms and conditions. Dave Gorman proved that a few years ago. The 36 pages of terms and conditions for the Boris bikes in London claimed that a leap year has 364 days instead of the correct 366 days. When Dave spotted it, the bike scheme had been running for 18 months. He reported the error and it was corrected within two days.

This is true but unfortunately virtually all contracts one enters into these days will incorporate large amounts of “small print”, so the railway isn’t any different to many other industries in this regard.

“I didn’t read it”, of itself, isn’t a valid argument against being bound by it.

As regards cancellations, presumably the option of a full refund still exists if a train is cancelled and the passenger does not travel? Still a bit rubbish though. I'm not going to stay up until 22:00 if I'm catching the 06:XX the next morning.

That’s my understanding.

It’s pretty shoddy to cancel last trains the day before. First trains from experience of relying on them along with many colleagues can be and are cancelled fairly regularly, but at least there are subsequent services to get people where they want to be.

Do many TOCs pull this stunt? TfW will provide a bus or taxi for last or infrequent services that are planned cancellations.

GTR certainly had form for doing this during the disaster in 2018 when the core opened fully and there were nowhere near enough route trained drivers to operate the service.

 

[td97]

Surely Northern are obliged to provide rail replacement or ticket acceptance in the event of the last service being cancelled, regardless of whether it is classified as an on-the-day cancellation or "short notice change to the timetable" cancellation?

Two people operating their customer service phone line said this was now a planned cancellation and as such they will not be putting a bus on.

I would write a complaint to Northern and also your MP.

 

[Watershed]

Surely Northern are obliged to provide rail replacement or ticket acceptance in the event of the last service being cancelled, regardless of whether it is classified as an on-the-day cancellation or "short notice change to the timetable" cancellation?

I would write a complaint to Northern and also your MP.

They are; the "Timetable of the Day" exclusion doesn't even purport to change rights in relation to alternative transport. Northern are simply making up excuses.

 

[185]

I would write a complaint to Northern and also your MP.

Already got a pre typed one from two years ago where "train drivers having covid" was Northern's initial (false) claim as to why they didn't have to put a replacement bus on, not even for the last train of the night. Blaming asteroids / the apocalypse / volcanoes in Bradford would have been more relevant and believable reasons.

 

[trover]

Already got a pre typed one from two years ago where "train drivers having covid" was Northern's initial (false) claim as to why they didn't have to put a replacement bus on, not even for the last train of the night. Blaming asteroids / the apocalypse / volcanoes in Bradford would have been more relevant and believable reasons.

Similar. I’ve been reusing the complaint letter template provided by one of the helpful forum members in my previous posts, every time they reject my delay repay claim with the 10pm PTotD excuse.

I’ve just passed my driving test on one of the recent strike days, which took me 2 hours on bus rather than <1 hour by rail (or also <1 hour had RRB existed) to get to the nearby city for the test. I still have a few complimentary tickets left so I’ll still travel with them, but will I pay to use their services? Probably not

 

[BPN2022]

Is there a reduction of the service in place? I notice there are some BPN-MIA circuits removed from the service today.

Are they planned or is it being done ad-hoc by control?

 

[td97]

The services with the VCN marker are "short notice change to the timetable" cancellations. You have to manually enable the CAN filter.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Chorley between 0200 and 0159 on 11/10/2022

Train information at Chorley between 0200 and 0159 on 11/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[185]

Anyone know why this thread has disappeared from the main list?

 

[skyhigh]

Anyone know why this thread has disappeared from the main list?

It hasn't?

 

[JD2168]

12:39pm from Sheffield to Lincoln was cancelled due to no train crew available, passengers to to catch the next train one hour later.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

For example, here in Newcastle Northern is pretty good and even a quick check on RTT shows the cancellations are few and far between here.

You’ve jinxed it now! Several cancelled this last couple of days, the last from Newcastle to Carlisle on both days, a train that can be quite well loaded.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Looks like the rail replacement buses from Barrow have no trains to connect with at Ulverston this morning. Was hoping to make a day trip to Lancaster. Checked before I left home and there seems to be nothing after 0807 until 1212. No use to me as I have school drop off/ pick up . See if it's any better tomorrow otherwise I'm driving. Must be short of staff again.

 

[EveningStar]

You’ve jinxed it now! Several cancelled this last couple of days, the last from Newcastle to Carlisle on both days, a train that can be quite well loaded.

Colleague was planning to get that train on Tuesday and is being less than polite, too be polite concerning her exact words, about Northern. Apparently bus driver did not inspire, including one incident where they were going to miss the Haltwhistle turnoff, so stopped on the A69 and reversed towards a following HGV.

 

[TUC]

Colleague was planning to get that train on Tuesday and is being less than polite, too be polite concerning her exact words, about Northern. Apparently bus driver did not inspire, including one incident where they were going to miss the Haltwhistle turnoff, so stopped on the A69 and reversed towards a following HGV.

In these days of satnavs, mistakes like that are simply incompetence.

 

[RT4038]

It is, but again it's highly unlikely that we would be in a position where everyone always has access to motor transport.

I would argue that for a small, densley populated country like this one, it would be highly undesirable for everyone to have access to motor transport due to the congestion/additional road infrastructure that would be required.

That means that public transport will always be vital.

You may well be right, but the problem is, you are outvoted. Public Transport may well be vital for some, but the level of public transport can always be less than it is now if you are a non , or specific journey only, user (i.e. got a car) This view then affects the decisions on the priorities.

 

[ricoblade]

Saturday morning again and dreading the Northern cancellations list Retford to Sheffield. Currently it's only the 09:32, which banjaxes you if you want to go from Gainsborough Central, hopefully the rest will run.

 

[philthetube]

In these days of satnavs, mistakes like that are simply incompetence.

A bus driver would not be provided with a sat nav and should not be using one unless is is a specific one which takes into account suitability of roads, bridges weight limits etc.

See many low bridges threads, some of which site sat navs as a cause.

 

[TUC]

A bus driver would not be provided with a sat nav and should not be using one unless is is a specific one which takes into account suitability of roads, bridges weight limits etc.

See many low bridges threads, some of which site sat navs as a cause.

My point is to use one which does take those factors into account. Surely that is far better than the example above of passengers being inconvenienced by a driver not having a clue where they are going?

 

[mike57]

My point is to use one which does take those factors into account. Surely that is far better than the example above of passengers being inconvenienced by a driver not having a clue where they are going?

Surely any risk assessment would identify the risk of a driver not being familiar with what might be a somewhat convoluted route, and the mitigation would be to provide a sat nav. If the missing of the turn resulted an incident which ended up with an investigation, (police, HSE, whoever) the lack of a sat nav would be latched on to. Yes the route planning software needs to be aware of the size and weight of the vehicle, but that is a case of making sure you buy the right thing. The route can then be preprogammed and planned at the depot. The lack of sat nav doesn't excuse the driver from making a dangerous move to recover, but it would be seen as a contributer, because the driver wouldn't be in that situation in the first place.

Rail replacement bus routes are not like a straightforwards journey between two major towns where you are following a main road all the way, and TOC source buses from all over so the problem so driver familiarity is likely to be an issue. Yes you can issue printed directions but the technology is there so make use of it.

I can remember being on a Dales bus service many years ago, and the driver was a short notice stand in who had just a typed list of stops (way before Google maps or sat navs). I ended up directing him for most of the journey as again it didn't stick to main roads.

 

[DarloRich]

Felt for the Northern driver given an absolute beasting by unhappy passengers at Leeds on Friday. 1233 train to Castleford seemed to fail in the platform when fully loaded. All passengers turfed off to await the 1333.......... which simply disappeared. (Looking at RTT later it apparently ran at 14:27!) meaning everyone was looking for the next train.

that left 3 trains loads of passengers trying to find out where the 1358 was. The poor guy stepped off the Nottingham terminator and was mobbed by frustrated people!

There was no communication and no staff around to help or guide anyone so as you can imagine tempers were getting heated!