Northern cancellations getting worse

[Neptune]

I am not going to betray my source suffice to say it was an ASLEF rep going to a meeting. And I also know some of the reps well.

So all 3 ASLEF reps going to a meeting destroy the service? I’d say you’ve betrayed the source now!

Anyway I’m confused. In your opinion are the cancellations the fault of Northern or ASLEF? Or is it RMT’s turn next? And how would you resolve all this. Still waiting for that one.

 

[scrapy]

Attending a meeting with management certainly is not classed as leave, it is work and part of a union reps job, the same as any other member of staff having a meeting with management. Union duties, training, safety briefs, assessments, weekly leave, daily leave, compassionate leave, leave for other purposes such as jury services, TA commitments, magistrates commitments so and sickness are all legitimate reasons why somebody may not be driving or guarding a train.

It should be noted that most union meetings and take place in a reps and members own time.

It is Northerns' job to ensure there is sufficient contingency and vacancies are filled to allow this to take place.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Attending a meeting with management certainly is not classed as leave, it is work and part of a union reps job, the same as any other member of staff having a meeting with management. Union duties, training, safety briefs, assessments, weekly leave, daily leave, compassionate leave, leave for other purposes such as jury services, TA commitments, magistrates commitments so and sickness are all legitimate reasons why somebody may not be driving or guarding a train.

It should be noted that most union meetings and take place in a reps and members own time.

It is Northerns' job to ensure there is sufficient contingency and vacancies are filled to allow this to take place.

Absolutely.

So all 3 ASLEF reps going to a meeting destroy the service? I’d say you’ve betrayed the source now!

Anyway I’m confused. In your opinion are the cancellations the fault of Northern or ASLEF? Or is it RMT’s turn next? And how would you resolve all this. Still waiting for that one.

So you admit it is a union meeting then?

 

[py_megapixel]

Wait, I thought Burnham said binning Arriva would make Northern better?

Oh...

Northern is better than it was back in 2018. Have we all forgotten about the weeks upon weeks when a large number of lines had little to no Saturday service, for example?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Northern is better than it was back in 2018. Have we all forgotten about the weeks upon weeks when a large number of lines had little to no Saturday service, for example?

Northern may be better in some areas but South Yorkshire is far worse.

 

[ModernRailways]

It’s a bank holiday weekend, morale must surely be at rock bottom. Is it any surprise cancellations are high?
Very few train crew (drivers and guards) will want to work overtime or rest day when the chances of them getting abuse is a lot higher, and they could be spending time with their own friends and family.

Northern should manage it better but I would imagine a large source of this problem is the ongoing dispute. The railway runs on overtime is the old saying, and it tends to stand true. Spare turns then need to cover for a duty uncovered meaning you then have nobody spare for last minute issues that may cause a train cancellation (sickness, disruption, incident etc). I imagine the school summer holidays will equally be quite rough if things continue as they are, a nice summer, extremely low morale and nobody wanting to come in and do extra hours, it’s a perfect storm and one created by the rdg/govt.

 

[skyhigh]

Northern may be better in some areas but South Yorkshire is far worse.

I'm not sure you understand the scale of the current crew shortage. An unprecedented number of drivers have left Sheffield depot, pretty much simultaneously. Leeds has also lost a lot of drivers and by my count has roughly 20 fewer guards than 12 months ago (plus those on long-term sick/other duties) due to resignations and transfers.

Realistically these trends aren't going to reverse until the dispute is sorted.

And before the suggestion of "just hire more people" is raised that's happening. It's just that the rate of training is lower than the rate leaving. There's plenty of route learning going on too (I've just spent a few weeks adding to my route card).

 

[Peterthegreat]

I'm not sure you understand the scale of the current crew shortage. An unprecedented number of drivers have left Sheffield depot, pretty much simultaneously. Leeds has also lost a lot of drivers and by my count has roughly 20 fewer guards than 12 months ago (plus those on long-term sick/other duties) due to resignations and transfers.

Realistically these trends aren't going to reverse until the dispute is sorted.

And before the suggestion of "just hire more people" is raised that's happening. It's just that the rate of training is lower than the rate leavinaccept g. There's plenty of route learning going on too (I've just spent a few weeks adding to my route card).

I fully accept there is a shortage of train crew. However there should be more honesty over the issues. Local politicians are constantly told there are sufficient resources. I'm also told Sheffield drivers are leaving at an unprecedented rate. So the question is why? There may be many reasons but if some of these are not addressed then the problem will continue.

 

[Neptune]

So you admit it is a union meeting then?

Union meetings with management happen, but you seem to be inferring it‘s every day which is collapsing the service.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Union meetings with management happen, but you seem to be inferring it‘s every day which is collapsing the service.

No. I said why are some days relatively ok and others are a complete fiasco? When I mentioned Union meetings you said I was clutching at straws. Given that Northern have issues most days taking 3 (plus co opted) staff out will inevitably lead to more cancellations if cover cannot be provided.

 

[tbtc]

I'm also told Sheffield drivers are leaving at an unprecedented rate. So the question is why? There may be many reasons but if some of these are not addressed then the problem will continue

I’d love to know, as Sheffield seems disproportionately affected by disruption

Some TOCs have to contend with the lure of other operators at the same depot (e.g. Neville Hill, Heaton) or nearby but I don’t see that in the case of Sheffield (unless they are heading to Derby to work for EMR?)

 

[43066]

I fully accept there is a shortage of train crew. However there should be more honesty over the issues. Local politicians are constantly told there are sufficient resources. I'm also told Sheffield drivers are leaving at an unprecedented rate. So the question is why? There may be many reasons but if some of these are not addressed then the problem will continue.

So, if you know all that, why are you so keen to blame union meetings?

 

[Peterthegreat]

I’d love to know, as Sheffield seems disproportionately affected by disruption

Some TOCs have to contend with the lure of other operators at the same depot (e.g. Neville Hill, Heaton) or nearby but I don’t see that in the case of Sheffield (unless they are heading to Derby to work for EMR?)

Indeed. May be LNER at Doncaster or one of the freight companies. Is it mainly money or do things like shift patterns and variety of work come into it?

So, if you know all that, why are you so keen to blame union meetings?

. I didn't I mentioned it as an issue.

 

[43066]

didn't I mentioned it as an issue.

You keep asking about union meetings specifically, which is clearly to make some sort of point.

The issue is not employing/rostering enough train crew to cover the service.

 

[Peterthegreat]

You keep asking about union meetings specifically, which is clearly to make some sort of point.

The issue is not employing/rostering enough train crew to cover the service.

I totally agree with your last comment. I did not mean to labour the union point but I was basically told I was clutching at straws. If you are already struggling for crew taking out (at least) 3 members of staff is going to have a major effect.

 

[Herefordian]

Tell me what’s worse which doesn’t include the issues around covid (crew shortages are a result of covid issues and the subsequent fallout if that helps).

Apologies. My post was intended as tongue in cheek, not an actual criticism.

I recall Burnham saying taking the franchise from Arriva would solve all of Northern's problems.

It hasn't solved them. These issues would still be present if it was Arriva or someone else.

I'm not criticising Northern at all. I firmly believe they're doing their best in the circumstances.

 

[skyhigh]

I’d love to know, as Sheffield seems disproportionately affected by disruption

I think it's mainly due to expansion of freight operators with local depots. 90% of the poaching is to various FOCs (with a smaller amount TPE and GC). I'm not aware of LNER taking on any qualified drivers recently.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I think it's mainly due to expansion of freight operators with local depots. 90% of the poaching is to various FOCs (with a smaller amount TPE and GC). I'm not aware of LNER taking on any qualified drivers recently.

That's interesting. I thought freight companies paid less than passenger TOCs and had more unsocial hours. Admittedly the work may be more varied and interesting but didn't the flow used to be from FOCs to TOCs?

 

[ModernRailways]

I’d love to know, as Sheffield seems disproportionately affected by disruption

Some TOCs have to contend with the lure of other operators at the same depot (e.g. Neville Hill, Heaton) or nearby but I don’t see that in the case of Sheffield (unless they are heading to Derby to work for EMR?)

I know here in Newcastle TPE have been known to entice some drivers with a fairly basic interview and then they have the job, they’re qualified so can go straight into traction and routes and be out there within a couple of months versus training someone from scratch.

There are plenty of FOCs around there too now which will be easy enough for most crew to get too. Sheffield could go to Leeds, Doncaster, Manchester, or further south too. That’s a vast area with plenty of different operators requiring drivers.

 

[northernchris]

On the plus side, "short notice change to the timetable" cancellations in the North West are now showing on Journeycheck. Previously, these disappeared without trace when viewing online journey planners and Journeycheck.

This is a positive step, makes it easier to view if your train is cancelled when all the info is one place.

 

[Geeves]

That's interesting. I thought freight companies paid less than passenger TOCs and had more unsocial hours. Admittedly the work may be more varied and interesting but didn't the flow used to be from FOCs to TOCs?

The pay is good (more) but the downside is if the work goes so does your job.

 

[scrapy]

I recall Burnham saying taking the franchise from Arriva would solve all of Northern's problems.

I certainly don't recall Burnham saying exactly that, and if he did them can you please quote what was said? I don't think anyone would realistically expect all problems to be solved.

Should be noted that Burnham is mayor of Greater Manchester not South Yorkshire anyway and things have definitely improved there. The metro mayor's of the north are still I believe collectively wanting wanting First removed from the Transpennine franchise (the mayor of South Yorkshire is part of this).

 

[gazzaa2]

Seemed to be loads of cancellations on the Lime Street-Warrington Central line yesterday evening.

 

[jayah]

The pay is good (more) but the downside is if the work goes so does your job.

The FOCs are proper businesses which means nobody is going to cancel their customers freight services as part of a policy to refuse well paid overtime.

Unfortunately in the DfT managed TOCs it doesn't seem to matter how much disruption is caused, those taking industrial action expect no adverse consequences to their security of employment, while the TOCs shareholders and DfT budget don't seem to suffer too many adverse consequences either.

Equally on the other side, industrial action is destructive for a real business and there is always the incentive for both sides to find agreement that keeps the customers goods moving as that is very much in both their interests.

There was a good deal of this when the TOCs were more like private businesses, which is why there were far fewer strikes and higher pay settlements back then.

 

[mandub]

That's interesting. I thought freight companies paid less than passenger TOCs and had more unsocial hours. Admittedly the work may be more varied and interesting but didn't the flow used to be from FOCs to TOCs?

FOCs pay more than Northern now.
And if you'd not heard......there's been no pay rise since 2019 and it looks very likely there ain't gonna be one until 2024 at best

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern is getting worse and yet somepeople think Northern should take over TPE (upside down emoji here)

Yet I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "b****y Northern Rail!" grumbled when our TPE service to Huddersfield is delayed or cancelled!

 

[IanXC]

Some TOCs have to contend with the lure of other operators at the same depot (e.g. Neville Hill, Heaton) or nearby but I don’t see that in the case of Sheffield (unless they are heading to Derby to work for EMR?)

Not sure what you're going after here as the only employers of Drivers at Neville Hill and Heaton are Northern??

 

[CaptainHaddock]

One thing that gets my goat about Northern is why, when they cancel a slow stopping train, they don’t get the nearest fast train to make additional stops?

As an example, last night Northern cancelled the 2102 Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds stopper as they claimed to have no driver. This is massively annoying because the next stopping train after that is a whopping hour and a half later at 2231 on a line that has half hourly stopping trains throughout the rest of the day.

Yet both the 2045 and 2118 fast Sheffield-Barnsley Leeds ran! Did no one at Northern control think that, if one of these trains were to stop additionally at Chapeltown, Elsecar and Wombwell they might have helped passengers for these stations instead of abandoning them at Sheffield for the best part of 2 hours?

 

[Kite159]

One thing that gets my goat about Northern is why, when they cancel a slow stopping train, they don’t get the nearest fast train to make additional stops?

As an example, last night Northern cancelled the 2102 Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds stopper as they claimed to have no driver. This is massively annoying because the next stopping train after that is a whopping hour and a half later at 2231 on a line that has half hourly stopping trains throughout the rest of the day.

Yet both the 2045 and 2118 fast Sheffield-Barnsley Leeds ran! Did no one at Northern control think that, if one of these trains were to stop additionally at Chapeltown, Elsecar and Wombwell they might have helped passengers for these stations instead of abandoning them at Sheffield for the best part of 2 hours?

But that would mean putting passengers first

 

[No Spirit]

But that would mean putting passengers first

Northern control have no interest in serving passengers, they just play trains.