Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Karl]

Thanks for the compliment on the avatar - it does capture certain aspects of my appearance and personality quite well . However it is in fact a coypu rather than a capybara, one of the feral population in Prague that I photographed earlier in the year.

Oops! Apologies I must pay more attention to Attenborough's documentaries. (I go to the bottom of the class!)

 

[TRAX]

I didn't hear the alarm but I must admit I wasn't paying attention. I only turned round when I heard her stumble. If there was an alarm the doors must have shut quite quickly rather than the 3 or so seconds you usually seem to get as it obviously caught her unawares. Her bag got caught in the door so she stumbled then it opened again after a second or so. Could have been much worse if someone was getting off the train instead. Especially if there's a "gap between the train and the platform edge".

Or maybe she just tried to launch herself through the closing doors, which is an extremely common scenario ?
Sounds a bit much to me to log a complaint with Northern, as you said, for something that you barely saw happening as you weren’t "paying attention" ?

 

[Bantamzen]

Or maybe she just tried to launch herself through the closing doors, which is an extremely common scenario ?
Sounds a bit much to me to log a complaint with Northern, as you said, for something that you barely saw happening as you weren’t "paying attention" ?

I was wondering this myself. On a couple of occasions I have approached the doors of a 331 (which I presume have similar door systems to the 195s), only for the hustle alarm to go and the doors start to close even though the service wasn't due for departure. On both occasions I have assumed this is because they are programmed to close after a certain period and/or no passengers passing through. And on both occasions I have resisted the temptation to dive through, instead choosing to simply hit the open button on the closing doors to reverse the process, as one might do with a lift. Now whilst I appreciate that passengers may not be aware of any system that closes doors after a set period, but usually the sound of the hustle alarm indicates that trying to dive through the doors may not be the best idea. Of course this may not have been the case in this instance, however having used both type of CAF units the one thing I have noticed is those hustle alarms sounding whenever the doors close.

 

[mrcaa]

Or maybe she just tried to launch herself through the closing doors, which is an extremely common scenario ?
Sounds a bit much to me to log a complaint with Northern, as you said, for something that you barely saw happening as you weren’t "paying attention" ?

My complaint wasn't really about what happened to her. As you point out I didn't see it and I can't be sure the hustle alarm hadn't sounded for at few seconds. It was about the fact that the doors are still closing on these units before the guard does it themselves and while there are still a stream of passengers getting on (there were at least 5 people behind her). Also the fact that we spent 40 minutes doing a brake test that surely should be done as the first thing in the day. I mean we can all going round in circles moaning about it on here but it's Northern management who need to put things in place to stop it from happening in future.

 

[Llama]

I was wondering this myself. On a couple of occasions I have approached the doors of a 331 (which I presume have similar door systems to the 195s), only for the hustle alarm to go and the doors start to close even though the service wasn't due for departure. On both occasions I have assumed this is because they are programmed to close after a certain period and/or no passengers passing through. And on both occasions I have resisted the temptation to dive through, instead choosing to simply hit the open button on the closing doors to reverse the process, as one might do with a lift. Now whilst I appreciate that passengers may not be aware of any system that closes doors after a set period, but usually the sound of the hustle alarm indicates that trying to dive through the doors may not be the best idea. Of course this may not have been the case in this instance, however having used both type of CAF units the one thing I have noticed is those hustle alarms sounding whenever the doors close.

You're right, 195 and 331 doors are identical in the way they operate and they do self-close with hustle alarm sounding, I'm not sure what the timing is but it might be in the order of 20 or 30 seconds after either doors released or one of the sensors was triggered. There are sensors near floor level (a light beam) which stops the self-closing sequence if in progress when the light beam is broken.

Unfortunately hustle alarms in general seem to be interpreted by some passengers as a 'hurry up, get on' warning rather than a 'these does are closing, don't attempt to board' warning. Not that that can be determined in this case as we don't have enough information.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately hustle alarms in general seem to be interpreted by some passengers as a 'hurry up, get on' warning rather than a 'these does are closing, don't attempt to board' warning. Not that that can be determined in this case as we don't have enough information.

If the railway persists in calling them "hustle alarms" that is of course how they will be interpreted - "hustling" people is to hurry them up, not deter them. "Danger alarms" might be a better term.

I think DB do this particular aspect better - a large red light (the 195s have a small red light which does help) and a longer, rougher sounding tone (a bit like a car horn) which sounds much more like a forceful "stand away" than a "oh, you might want to hurry up" that ours does.

But either way, isn't this fault causing doors to close either without hustle alarm or at least without it sounding for a few seconds first as it does on other stock?

 

[Llama]

Yes, as far as I know when the fault happens (and certainly when I've witnessed it myself off duty) the doors suddenly all close at the same time a few seconds after opening, without hustle alarm.

 

[Bantamzen]

If the railway persists in calling them "hustle alarms" that is of course how they will be interpreted - "hustling" people is to hurry them up, not deter them. "Danger alarms" might be a better term.

I think DB do this particular aspect better - a large red light (the 195s have a small red light which does help) and a longer, rougher sounding tone (a bit like a car horn) which sounds much more like a forceful "stand away" than a "oh, you might want to hurry up" that ours does.

But either way, isn't this fault causing doors to close either without hustle alarm or at least without it sounding for a few seconds first as it does on other stock?

And how many passengers actually know them as hustle alarms? I suspect very few.

In reality people hear a hustle alarm and think, "that's like a lift announcing 'doors closing' which to me means charge at it, what could possibly go wrong?". And frankly, bizarre rant aside, I'm pretty certain you know this.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

All the CAF trains bought by Northern, Caledonian sleeper and TPE seem to have or had problems. Suppose you get what you pay for.
I hope the good people of Birmingham (and possibly Newcastle if the CAF tender is accepted) are ready for there recently ordered CAF trams. Perhaps CAF trams are more reliable than there trains.
Oh for the days when BR just whistled up another batch of proven units from York or Derby works. Minimal crewe training too.
K

All the previous CAF trains supplied to the UK have worked pretty well, but it does seem that the latest ones have been built to a cost. Not quite at Ansaldo-Breda levels of problems but not good, for sure.

I wonder if some wag will be inspired by the Dutch graffiti that was sprayed on one of the ill-fated Ansaldo-Breda FYRA sets...

"Their language may be weird, but DON'T BUY TRAINS FROM THE BASQUE COUNTRY!"

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Their language may be weird, but DON'T BUY TRAINS FROM THE BASQUE COUNTRY!"

"You might like paella, but you won't like their trains"?

The original for reference:

Graffitied Fyra train - "Their food may be good but don't buy trains from Italy"

 

[Philip]

Seems to be a gap right now in new units either being accepted by Northern, or put into service. Of the 2 car units, 001, 002 and 007 are still the only ones in service as far as I can see. With the 3-car units, 101-125 in service with the exceptions of 108, 112 and 113; none of 126-133 in service yet. It has been like this for over a week now.

 

[Llama]

NH716 diagram (Starts at Chester with 1E50 0617 Chester-Leeds, arr 0846) is 150210 tomorrow, at least unless it gets swapped later in the day. First trip will be cosy.

 

[ic31420]

Seems to be a gap right now in new units either being accepted by Northern.... (snip) With the 3-car units, 101-125 in service with the exceptions of 108, 112 and 113; none of 126-133 in service yet. It has been like this for over a week now.

I suppose that begs the question what's wrong with 108, 112 and 113.

And a thankyou to @Llama for his earlier reply to the 4minute test. My blood pressure was initially raised but then settled, a little. It's clear there are lots of avenues to explore to resolve that issue.
The think that still sticks out is how this has surprised Northern. And the lack of a countdown clock is unforgivable.

 

[Llama]

I can't remember which units are being used for training at the moment but those sets often have seals missing on safety equipment, need software and hardware updates before they are fit for service and maybe have some minor snagging faults outstanding so they are only really suitable for training.

 

[ic31420]

I can't remember which units are being used for training at the moment but those sets often have seals missing on safety equipment, need software and hardware updates before they are fit for service and maybe have some minor snagging faults outstanding so they are only really suitable for training.

I did wonder that but then wondered if the training units might have been fully accepted and run in traffic to be accepted then stopped to be used as trainers.

 

[Bovverboy]

NH716 diagram (Starts at Chester with 1E50 0617 Chester-Leeds, arr 0846) is 150210 tomorrow, at least unless it gets swapped later in the day. First trip will be cosy.

So did 150210 work 1939 Leeds - Chester yesterday (Thursday)?

I notice that, even though the diagram starting 0617 ex-Chester employs a formation which has stabled overnight at Chester, it apparently counts as a Newton Heath diagram. Is that because it uses a formation which is based there? From the information I have here the set stabling at Chester overnight starts the day at Neville Hill.
If a 142 or 150 stables overnight at Allerton depot, does its next diagram count as an Allerton or Newton Heath? What if it stables at Lime Street?
I have a vague recollection that when Allerton became the home depot for 323s its allocation of 156s became Newton Heath allocated, but I can't find any reference now and I may have dreamed that one up. What exactly is the current situation with the 156s?

 

[156420]

So did 150210 work 1939 Leeds - Chester yesterday (Thursday)?

I notice that, even though the diagram starting 0617 ex-Chester employs a formation which has stabled overnight at Chester, it apparently counts as a Newton Heath diagram. Is that because it uses a formation which is based there? From the information I have here the set stabling at Chester overnight starts the day at Neville Hill.
If a 142 or 150 stables overnight at Allerton depot, does its next diagram count as an Allerton or Newton Heath? What if it stables at Lime Street?
I have a vague recollection that when Allerton became the home depot for 323s its allocation of 156s became Newton Heath allocated, but I can't find any reference now and I may have dreamed that one up. What exactly is the current situation with the 156s?

195’s are Newton Heath based so all their Diagrams start with NH7xx doesn’t matter if they start the day at Neville Hill.

The one from Chester could easily be a Neville Hill or Heaton 158 (if they were short of 195’s) the diagram is still NH716 whatever is on it.

142’s are based at Heaton/Newton Heath and 150’s at Newton Heath so all their Diagrams begin with HT6xx, NH5xx or NH4xx so you can have the situation of a Heaton based 142 working a Newton Heath 142 Diagram off Allerton it’s perfectly normal. Same goes for Lime Street.

All the former Allerton 156’s have now been split between Newton Heath & Heaton.

Allerton is now the Home Depot for 323’s but their diagrams still start LT1xx

 

[a_c_skinner]

There was a rash of Northern cancellations and turning back short yesterday evening (Mrs S was caught up. Actually they were well handled with clear signs at Picadilly that Barrow passengers should get next train to Oxford Road pronto.) Realtime Trains said they were due to more trains than normal needing servicing. Was this the usual autumn wheel problems or some 195 issues?

 

[Bovverboy]

195’s are Newton Heath based so all their Diagrams start with NH7xx doesn’t matter if they start the day at Neville Hill.

The one from Chester could easily be a Neville Hill or Heaton 158 (if they were short of 195’s) the diagram is still NH716 whatever is on it.

142’s are based at Heaton/Newton Heath and 150’s at Newton Heath so all their Diagrams begin with HT6xx, NH5xx or NH4xx so you can have the situation of a Heaton based 142 working a Newton Heath 142 Diagram off Allerton it’s perfectly normal. Same goes for Lime Street.

All the former Allerton 156’s have now been split between Newton Heath & Heaton.

Allerton is now the Home Depot for 323’s but their diagrams still start LT1xx

Thanks for the information, very interesting.

I'm guessing that the Leeds - Southport diagrams are Neville Hill. I'm basing that guess on the fact that 158s are known to get to Southport.

I'm also guessing that the 0708 SuX Barrow - Lancaster and 0823 SuX return, being 195-operated, will be on a Newton Heath diagram, but that almost all other Barrow (or beyond) - Lancaster terminators, being 156-operated, will be Heaton, as will the 1532 SuX Preston - Carlisle. If that's the case, I would also guess that Preston is the furthest south that a Heaton diagram ever gets.

(Gets ready to be shot down in flames).

 

[156420]

Thanks for the information, very interesting.

I'm guessing that the Leeds - Southport diagrams are Neville Hill. I'm basing that guess on the fact that 158s are known to get to Southport.

I'm also guessing that the 0708 SuX Barrow - Lancaster and 0823 SuX return, being 195-operated, will be on a Newton Heath diagram, but that almost all other Barrow (or beyond) - Lancaster terminators, being 156-operated, will be Heaton, as will the 1532 SuX Preston - Carlisle. If that's the case, I would also guess that Preston is the furthest south that a Heaton diagram ever gets.

(Gets ready to be shot down in flames).

Slightly off topic but happy to provide the info in another thread if need be.

Yes anything booked a 195 (at the moment) is a Newton Heath diagram, but the diagram cycle can sometimes actually not see it visit NH for days on end. Perfectly normal.

Leeds-Southport are booked for a variety of units! 142’s/150’s/156’s all Newton Heath Diagrams but it wouldn’t stop a Heaton allocated 142 or 156 appearing on them. The 158’s on there are Neville Hill Diagrams.

And yes the Cumbrian Coast 156’s are Heaton Diagrams in the range of HT66x-HT68x not that there’s that amount of diagrams on the Coast! Again a Newton Heath based unit could still appear on there, as long as it gets fuelled at the right time and doesn’t run out of exam miles, it’s not an issue them being on there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are the two Class 195/1 units that I saw in the sidings just outside Wigan Wallgate yesterday when I was coming back from Southport on the Leeds train, the same two units that have always been there?

 

[superkev]

Slightly off topic but happy to provide the info in another thread if need be.

Yes anything booked a 195 (at the moment) is a Newton Heath diagram, but the diagram cycle can sometimes actually not see it visit NH for days on end. Perfectly normal.

Leeds-Southport are booked for a variety of units! 142’s/150’s/156’s all Newton Heath Diagrams but it wouldn’t stop a Heaton allocated 142 or 156 appearing on them. The 158’s on there are Neville Hill Diagrams.

And yes the Cumbrian Coast 156’s are Heaton Diagrams in the range of HT66x-HT68x not that there’s that amount of diagrams on the Coast! Again a Newton Heath based unit could still appear on there, as long as it gets fuelled at the right time and doesn’t run out of exam miles, it’s not an issue them being on there.

I asked the question about post pacer Northern depot relocations see
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-depot-allocations.187540/
K

 

[Llama]

Are the two Class 195/1 units that I saw in the sidings just outside Wigan Wallgate yesterday when I was coming back from Southport on the Leeds train, the same two units that have always been there?

No, they get swapped every now and then and tend to visit Allerton/Edge Hill/Blackpool for exams/maintenance/fuel etc.

 

[M1544]

Looks like Northern have apologised for the issues with 195s to the media - https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...new-train-glitches-delays-affecting-bradford/

 

[507021]

Seems to be a gap right now in new units either being accepted by Northern, or put into service. Of the 2 car units, 001, 002 and 007 are still the only ones in service as far as I can see. With the 3-car units, 101-125 in service with the exceptions of 108, 112 and 113; none of 126-133 in service yet. It has been like this for over a week now.

I think 108 and 130 are the most recent deliveries, so may be why they aren't in service yet.

Not sure if 131-133 have arrived.

 

[86247]

according to train logger 195131 has been at worksop since 17th of September

 

[XCTurbostar]

Just seen a 2 car 195 on the M5 near Gloucester. Didn’t catch the number. Any ideas?

 

[T74]

according to train logger 195131 has been at worksop since 17th of September

195129 and 195009 are the training units at Worksop at the moment

 

[86247]

yeah just seen them on train logger that both are there does anyone know where 195131 has gone seems weird only one sight of it on their.

 

[507021]

yeah just seen them on train logger that both are there does anyone know where 195131 has gone seems weird only one sight of it on their.

It hasn't been delivered AFAIK.