Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Killingworth]

109 and 129 at Sheffield on Thursday, on driver/route training I am guessing.

Beat me to it! They were practising coupling up and uncoupling when I caught them. The last attempt seemed quite rough before the units were parked! Indicator on 195129 was set for Cleethorpes, but the Northern service via Brigg standing in platform 3 was a 142.

 

[superkev]

Went past Newton Heath the other day and noticed the new 195 shed and sidings look some way off completion with the floor just being poured. Looks several months away to me.
I wonder if its lateness have, or is it having an impact on 195s entering service.
K

 

[superkev]

Beat me to it! They were practising coupling up and uncoupling when I caught them. The last attempt seemed quite rough before the units were parked! Indicator on 190209 was set for Cleethorpes, but the Northern service via Brigg standing in platform 3 was a 142.

View attachment 70306 View attachment 70307

I believe coupling the 195s are sometimes more like a controlled crash.
K

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indicator on 190209 was set for Cleethorpes.....

What class is the 190209 unit you mention above?

 

[Killingworth]

I believe coupling the 195s are sometimes more like a controlled crash.
K

Looked and sounded like that as the stationary unit jumped forward a few inches!

 

[Killingworth]

What class is the 190209 unit you mention above?

You spotted my typo now corrected Pictures show 195209 and 195009.

 

[Llama]

I believe coupling the 195s are sometimes more like a controlled crash.
K

Yes they're hardly the easiest things to handle at low speed due to the computer trying to decipher whether there's enough traction effort to overcome the holding brake and let you move. 331s are far easier and smoother to couple.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You spotted my typo now corrected Pictures show 195209 and 195009.

Even so, a unit with a fleet number of 195209 still seems outside the existing Northern fleet numbering sequence:-
Class 195/0 ..... 195001 to 195025
Class 195/1 ..... 195101 to 195133

 

[Killingworth]

Even so, a unit with a fleet number of 195209 still seems outside the existing Northern fleet numbering sequence:-
Class 195/0 ..... 195001 to 195025
Class 195/1 ..... 195101 to 195133

OK, 3rd time lucky, the photographic evidence is very clear, it was 195129, as confirmed by aleandrail. Should have gone to bed earlier last night

 

[northernchris]

Went past Newton Heath the other day and noticed the new 195 shed and sidings look some way off completion with the floor just being poured. Looks several months away to me.
I wonder if its lateness have, or is it having an impact on 195s entering service.
K

It certainly must be having an impact on stabling capacity. Seems to have been under construction for months now!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It certainly must be having an impact on stabling capacity. Seems to have been under construction for months now!

Why has there been the delay in the completion of the Newton Heath new Class 195 building.

 

[superkev]

It certainly must be having an impact on stabling capacity. Seems to have been under construction for months now!

I would guess at over a year.
Big puzzle as to why everything on the railway seems to proceed at a snail's pace.
K

 

[Llama]

Well over a year now, probably at least 18 months since work started. I remember walking a trainee driver around Newton Heath depot last summer when work had been underway for a while then and there was a big muddy hole where #5 and #6 holding sidings were. It's the same with the wheel lathe building at Newton Heath which is in the part of the shed which was the paint shop. Absolutely tectonic pace, still no floor in it.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Isn't Springs Branch depot at Wigan in the same delayed situation?
There is no strong leadership at Arriva Northern to stand up and kick back side and take hold of all the problems whether there own or by Network Rail and it's contractors.

 

[thejuggler]

After another trip today my honest review is they really aren't very good. I'd even say in terms of passenger comfort and ride they are a huge step backwards from the almost 30 year old 158 I also used today.

Engine vibration through the seat, constant door closing noises, rattles and on slowing for the stations I can only assume the very harsh judder was the gearbox dropping down, it felt like the wheels were locking up on the rails.

On arrival the doors buttons lit up, as did the "door not in service" warning light, so they wouldn't open, then they did open. Do the buttons light before the guard has unlocked all the carriages?

 

[jonnyfan]

On arrival the doors buttons lit up, as did the "door not in service" warning light, so they wouldn't open, then they did open. Do the buttons light before the guard has unlocked all the carriages?

The ASDO system controls the "door not in service" lights, if the lights stay on then the ASDO system wants to keep the doors closed - at some stations the system will want to keep all doors closed (mostly at multi-platform stations) and will require the guard to manually override the ASDO system to release the doors. It can be a little confusing for passengers but they are a big help for the guard

 

[Roger B]

My issue with the "door not in use" service lights, is that it confuses passengers, who on seeing this illuminated (particularly when a 195 is stationery at a platform, prior to the doors being released), start to panic, and head-off away from the doors seeking another door that is in use. Similarly, passengers on the platform see the illuminated sign, and head-off to left or right seeking a door in use. Both of these scenarios: increase dwell times (a non-trivial matter, I suggest, on the core section through MCO), are viewed negatively by passengers, and could result in trips and falls, further delaying services. IMHO "door not in use" should only be illuminated for any specific door when approaching a station at which that door will not be permitted to open.

 

[Llama]

After another trip today my honest review is they really aren't very good. I'd even say in terms of passenger comfort and ride they are a huge step backwards from the almost 30 year old 158 I also used today.

Engine vibration through the seat, constant door closing noises, rattles and on slowing for the stations I can only assume the very harsh judder was the gearbox dropping down, it felt like the wheels were locking up on the rails.

On arrival the doors buttons lit up, as did the "door not in service" warning light, so they wouldn't open, then they did open. Do the buttons light before the guard has unlocked all the carriages?

The harsh juddering was probably down to low rail adhesion, any unit would be susceptible to the same, the conditions were quite poor yesterday.

But yes the ride is disappointingly harsh. You will notice that the wheelbase of the bogies is shorter than on Sprinters/158s etc and the air suspension bellows are noticeably smaller too.

 

[themiller]

The harsh juddering was probably down to low rail adhesion, any unit would be susceptible to the same, the conditions were quite poor yesterday.

But yes the ride is disappointingly harsh. You will notice that the wheelbase of the bogies is shorter than on Sprinters/158s etc and the air suspension bellows are noticeably smaller too.

Having ridden on several units on the Manchester Airport to Barrow route, it feels to me that the ride is more of a sports nature than a limousine i.e. firmer. The braking feels like the braking surface has been machined with 'chatter' ridges on but this could be a design issue with brake pads or their mountings - I get a similar effect on my car at very low speeds and light brake applications.

 

[AM9]

The harsh juddering was probably down to low rail adhesion, any unit would be susceptible to the same, the conditions were quite poor yesterday.

But yes the ride is disappointingly harsh. You will notice that the wheelbase of the bogies is shorter than on Sprinters/158s etc and the air suspension bellows are noticeably smaller too.

Short wheelbase bogies are kinder to the track and when properly designed, capable of speeds greater than 100mph. Just look at the much maligned (by some) class 700s, - they seem to cope OK with some pretty rough track with very wide load differences from empty to crush loaded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having ridden on several units on the Manchester Airport to Barrow route, it feels to me that the ride is more of a sports nature than a limousine i.e. firmer. The braking feels like the braking surface has been machined with 'chatter' ridges on but this could be a design issue with brake pads or their mountings - I get a similar effect on my car at very low speeds and light brake applications.

The braking also feels (as a passenger) binary, which is odd as the lever itself purports to offer a continuous "spectrum" of braking levels rather than just a few steps. Pretty much everywhere, they seem to follow almost German practice of coming in (as) fast (as the TPWS will allow) then braking to a (hard) stand in one application. I thought this might just be perception but I'm not the only one to note it in here.

 

[Seehof]

Can someone please tell me if they are operating on the York - Blackpool yet? November 11 was suggested as a possible introduction date. Thank you

 

[Llama]

The application and release of the friction brakes, which work below 24mph in normal running, isn't very smooth, it's very 'on/off'. It also isn't possible to get a smooth stop like it is on other traction because once down to 1mph the TCMS grabs hold of the unit and applies the holding brake with about 25% brake effort. The best that can be done is to make sure the brake is at about 15-20% already from above say 5mph just before you stop. Accuracy is paramount with these units thanks to ASDO so less skilled drivers will 'fan' the brake which is really not comfortable for passengers in them.

 

[northernchris]

Can someone please tell me if they are operating on the York - Blackpool yet? November 11 was suggested as a possible introduction date. Thank you

They aren't currently working Blackpool - York, I believe the intention is now around mid December to coincide with the timetable change

 

[superkev]

The application and release of the friction brakes, which work below 24mph in normal running, isn't very smooth, it's very 'on/off'. It also isn't possible to get a smooth stop like it is on other traction because once down to 1mph the TCMS grabs hold of the unit and applies the holding brake with about 25% brake effort. The best that can be done is to make sure the brake is at about 15-20% already from above say 5mph just before you stop. Accuracy is paramount with these units thanks to ASDO so less skilled drivers will 'fan' the brake which is really not comfortable for passengers in them.

Cant have been that hard to stop a train accurately in steam days. Like my vw golf, too clever for there own good.
K

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cant have been that hard to stop a train accurately in steam days. Like my vw golf, too clever for there own good.

My (late model) Landy has a stupid feature whereby when you lift off the accelerator with the clutch down it keeps the revs up for about a second to "do a smooth change" when changing down. It does nothing of the sort, and makes changing up very rough, and I've had to get used to lifting off just before pressing the clutch to stop it doing it.

This sounds like a similarly pointless "helpful" (not helpful) feature, which modern kit seems full of because it's easy to do in code. They're rarely worth having.

So is it all engine braking above 24mph? Or is there a dynamic (hydraulic) brake too?

 

[Llama]

It's a dynamic brake using a retarder in the gearbox as far as I know rather than engine braking, and yes normally braking above 24 mph will use only the dynamic brake, after a brief 'rub of the pads' to reduce the delay in application. When speed reduces to 24mph it's very apparent and easy to feel when the friction brake kicks in. There are quite a few situations which will invoke full friction braking at any speed though.

 

[WatcherZero]

Isn't Springs Branch depot at Wigan in the same delayed situation?
There is no strong leadership at Arriva Northern to stand up and kick back side and take hold of all the problems whether there own or by Network Rail and it's contractors.

Still on course for its original December opening, wires went live in October.

 

[LancasterRed]

Not been the best of times for the 195s. Yesterday on one the information displays were down and passengers nearly missed Lancaster due to a late announcement.

Today there's currently a 195 held in Lancaster because the toilets aren't working. The station announcer stayed relatively composed announcing it in all of its glory.

Overall though, great units, love them.

 

[Llama]

There are one or two waiting for software updates to allow the PIS (passenger information system) to work. I've had one 195 recently, 116 IIRC, where it hadn't worked for days judging by the repair book. Asdo still works but PIS being out just means the guard has to do announcements and obviously no destination is displayed on the ends or info in the saloons.

It's pretty poor to be honest, quite often the PIS won't accept certain headcodes. The 1839 Leeds-Chester has a headcode that the 195 unit accepts but it comes up with the wrong time, luckily the same stops so that can be used but it will show your ETA at stations as being six hours in the past. If you can remember a headcode for a similar journey and use that you might be able to bodge it so long as the wrong headcode has at least the same stops - any additional stops on the 'bodge' headcode can be scrubbed off so the PIS ignores them.

It's not ideal, and this isn't even a safety critical system - the number of issues with these units on other, including some more important systems, is embarrassing.