Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Class37.4]

We should be electrifying not building more polluting diesels after IPCC report on air pollution. Government should be forcing Failing Grayling to reverse his decision forthwith as we don't have time to prat about with alternatives and diesels under the wires.

And frankly we don't have the money or the patience for Network Fail style electrification

 

[Bornin1980s]

With the pacers condemned, I think we urgently need more diesels to avoid a traction shortage.

 

[deltic08]

And frankly we don't have the money or the patience for Network Fail style electrification

We have the money and the Government use it when they want to. £2billion to the DUP, £28billion to the road lobby, £3billion to HS2 even before a shovel has moved and it will be electrified. Try running that at 200mph on hydrogen or batteries Mr Grayling.

Cost of overspend on GWML is not wholly NRs fault. They were told to make it fit for 140mph so it was designed chunky and over engineered at greater cost to make it resilient for multiple pantographs then the spec was reduced to 125mph but the order could not be changed.

Manchester-Euxton Jnc electrification is atypical because of unexpected geology and having 3? construction companies having a bash at it. Preston- Blackpool was more typical. It was on budget and only a little late.

 

[deltic08]

With the pacers condemned, I think we urgently need more diesels to avoid a traction shortage.

We already have enough diesels to cover for the Pacers without ordering more.

 

[pemma]

I know about that one, was referring to the 175s that worked Mid-Cheshire services during the day before Northern took over the route. A 175 also used to work to Stockport in the morning and wait in the bay platform for an hour or so before forming the 09:5x Stockport to Holyhead via Warrington, which you may be thinking of.

No I mean early on weekdays and all day at weekends there were numerous 175s sat in the sidings at Stockport.

 

[superkev]

We already have enough diesels to cover for the Pacers without ordering more.

Presumably you mean enough after all the various electrification schemes are finished.
K

 

[a_c_skinner]

atypical because of unexpected geology

I find this difficult to believe and even if true I don't think it a wholly adequate explanation. The geology of the area is very well known. It is well surveyed and the large amount of mining in the area produced a lot of information. Even if not well known in detail the geology of the area is known to be of successive layers of different rock and the unpredictable nature of each individual base could have been foreseen. This being the case it would have been possible to dig a few bases as test holes, perhaps only a small % of the total. Whilst this would not have speeded up the process it could have given much more data to produce a better estimate of how long and what resources were needed. Not coping with the geology isn't an excuse, it is an admission. None of the conditions encountered have been, ahem, ground breaking.

 

[Class37.4]

We have the money and the Government use it when they want to. £2billion to the DUP, £28billion to the road lobby, £3billion to HS2 even before a shovel has moved and it will be electrified. Try running that at 200mph on hydrogen or batteries Mr Grayling.

Cost of overspend on GWML is not wholly NRs fault. They were told to make it fit for 140mph so it was designed chunky and over engineered at greater cost to make it resilient for multiple pantographs then the spec was reduced to 125mph but the order could not be changed.

Manchester-Euxton Jnc electrification is atypical because of unexpected geology and having 3? construction companies having a bash at it. Preston- Blackpool was more typical. It was on budget and only a little late.

My comment still stands, lets see if they can do Corby on time and on Budget. Anyway there are plenty of other threads for an electrification debate this is meant to be about the 195's and whether you like it or not Diesels will be around for some time yet, and of course orders for variants of this train are now quite considerable, I believe Northern will order more of these trains if they get Liverpool - Nottingham

 

[tommy_train]

In the last couple of months I've taken the same train from Hebden Bridge to Manchester on three separate Thursdays and it's produced a 158, 156 and 142...

Well, they say that variety is the spice of life, so it is good to know that the railway does not dissappoint in this area!

 

[Bornin1980s]

We already have enough diesels to cover for the Pacers without ordering more.

If that was the case, they would have gone already, like the Leyland National road buses they were based on. Where I live, more than half the trains are still pacers. I seriously doubt if there are enough 156s in existence to replace them all.

 

[deltic08]

Presumably you mean enough after all the various electrification schemes are finished.
K

Affirmative. I have included the 55 195s as well but not the additional order.

 

[Class37.4]

If that was the case, they would have gone already, like the Leyland National road buses they were based on. Where I live, more than half the trains are still pacers. I seriously doubt if there are enough 156s in existence to replace them all.

There is still some rolling stock to be cascaded plus the 769's, DMU's freed up and replaced on completion of Blackpool Manchester Electrification, and then 58 new 195's, which in turn will allow a substancial number of 15x units to be cascaded around to replace Railbuses.

In the Northeast for instance the current mix of 156 and Railbuses look like being replaced with a mix of 158 and 156.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Remember that GA are also getting rid of their 156's. I highly doubt there'll be a DMU shortage at Northern.

 

[deltic08]

I find this difficult to believe and even if true I don't think it a wholly adequate explanation. The geology of the area is very well known. It is well surveyed and the large amount of mining in the area produced a lot of information. Even if not well known in detail the geology of the area is known to be of successive layers of different rock and the unpredictable nature of each individual base could have been foreseen. This being the case it would have been possible to dig a few bases as test holes, perhaps only a small % of the total. Whilst this would not have speeded up the process it could have given much more data to produce a better estimate of how long and what resources were needed. Not coping with the geology isn't an excuse, it is an admission. None of the conditions encountered have been, ahem, ground breaking.

Difficult to believe or not is your problem but why were so many piles lost into unknown underground workings or abandoned in favour of adjacent gravity pads in the Bolton area? It wasn't a few, it was into dozens.

 

[deltic08]

My comment still stands, lets see if they can do Corby on time and on Budget. Anyway there are plenty of other threads for an electrification debate this is meant to be about the 195's and whether you like it or not Diesels will be around for some time yet, and of course orders for variants of this train are now quite considerable, I believe Northern will order more of these trains if they get Liverpool - Nottingham

What are the considerable variant diesel orders of the 195?

 

[yorkie]

I am glad to see we are now back on topic!

Just a reminder this thread is to discuss Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates and there is plenty of capacity on this forum for new threads to discuss anything else in a thread of its own.

If anyone sees an off topic post, and wishes to reply to it, please do so in a new thread, and report the off topic post, thanks.

If anyone wishes to discuss the delays electrifying the routes from London to Oxford/Bristol, please use this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ctrification-to-oxford-and-bristol-tm.173735/

To discuss anything else, use an existing thread (if there is one) or create a new thread (if there isn't).

 

[Class37.4]

What are the considerable variant diesel orders of the 195?

The considerable orders for Wales in particular and the West Midlands, yes I know they have different class numbers but they are just a variant of the 195/Civity train.

I am sure these trains will be a great improvement, although unfortunately that's not difficult with Northern, the overall interior and seating without getting into a seat debate, does look a distinct disappointment when compared to the Anglia Stadler Trains.

 

[deltic08]

I am sure these trains will be a great improvement, although unfortunately that's not difficult with Northern, the overall interior and seating without getting into a seat debate, does look a distinct disappointment when compared to the Anglia Stadler Trains.

Well, I can't argue with you there.

 

[js1000]

Remember that GA are also getting rid of their 156's. I highly doubt there'll be a DMU shortage at Northern.

Short term DMUs are a problem for Northern with the Pacers going but 58 of the 195s should be sufficient as the long term outlook is good.

Northern have probably got their eyes on the 22 185s or 27 175s which are going spare in the coming years. And if the 769 project is a success then the ROSCOs will just convert surplus EMU stock (319s, 321s etc) to operate on non-electrified lines to plug the gap.

 

[krus_aragon]

With a prospective future fleet including 175s, 185s, and 195s, it looks like the Northern Random Unit Generator may have some life in it yet...

 

[DJH1971]

Any more indication of when they will be in service?

 

[MDB1images]

Just adding to DJH1971 request of when the Class 195's may enter service (as opposed to the planned date that the PR department at Northern may have given out!), does anyone who is 'close' to the training know if its all going well for drivers and conductors and is on plan?

 

[DJH1971]

Just adding to DJH1971 request of when the Class 195's may enter service (as opposed to the planned date that the PR department at Northern may have given out!), does anyone who is 'close' to the training know if its all going well for drivers and conductors and is on plan?

They must not be far off entering service as they have been a fairly common sight in Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[js1000]

With a prospective future fleet including 175s, 185s, and 195s, it looks like the Northern Random Unit Generator may have some life in it yet...

My hunch is either the 22 185s or 27 175s will go to Northern post-2020 to bolster capacity on successful Northern Connect routes - not both.

People on here think the order for the 195s is a little flimsy and ought be about 80 units - not 50-60. Eversholt are probably unwilling to spend money on new DMUs with a 30 year lifespan but which may have to be re-engineered by 2040 to meet a potential diesel ban.

 

[js1000]

Just adding to DJH1971 request of when the Class 195's may enter service (as opposed to the planned date that the PR department at Northern may have given out!), does anyone who is 'close' to the training know if its all going well for drivers and conductors and is on plan?

I think entry into service has been pushed back to 2019 unfortunately.

 

[Bevan Price]

They must not be far off entering service as they have been a fairly common sight in Liverpool Lime Street.

Still test runs, I understand - and nowhere near enough delivered yet to be used in regular daily passenger service.

 

[507021]

Remember that GA are also getting rid of their 156's. I highly doubt there'll be a DMU shortage at Northern.

The eighteen extra DMUs due to enter service by the end of 2022 must be of similar quality and performance to a Turbostar, so personally I doubt the Greater Anglia 156s will be transferring to Northern. My guess would be they transfer to the East Midlands franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My hunch is either the 22 185s or 27 175s will go to Northern post-2020 to bolster capacity on successful Northern Connect routes - not both.

People on here think the order for the 195s is a little flimsy and ought be about 80 units - not 50-60. Eversholt are probably unwilling to spend money on new DMUs with a 30 year lifespan but which may have to be re-engineered by 2040 to meet a potential diesel ban.

Which is one reason why it's a shame they weren't bi-modes, as these could continue as EMUs past then.

FWIW, I'm genuinely quite surprised they haven't been built with a pantograph well, as changing the coach structure would be by far the most awkward and expensive part of changing the power mode to electric. Most new South East third rail EMUs have such a thing, e.g. the 450s.

 

[Chester1]

My hunch is either the 22 185s or 27 175s will go to Northern post-2020 to bolster capacity on successful Northern Connect routes - not both.

People on here think the order for the 195s is a little flimsy and ought be about 80 units - not 50-60. Eversholt are probably unwilling to spend money on new DMUs with a 30 year lifespan but which may have to be re-engineered by 2040 to meet a potential diesel ban.

I think your last point cannot be overstated. There is a huge disincentive for roscos to fund DMUs and bi modes are more expensive. This has been underlined by the fact its only going to be 3 extra 195s.

The eighteen extra DMUs due to enter service by the end of 2022 must be of similar quality and performance to a Turbostar, so personally I doubt the Greater Anglia 156s will be transferring to Northern. My guess would be they transfer to the East Midlands franchise.

I would not be surprised if the future requirements are altered to reflect the significant changes since the franchise was awarded. I think Porterbrook's proposed battery 350s might be a good choice for Northern and as you have pointed out there are the 175s and 185s available too.

 

[507021]

I would not be surprised if the future requirements are altered to reflect the significant changes since the franchise was awarded. I think Porterbrook's proposed battery 350s might be a good choice for Northern and as you have pointed out there are the 175s and 185s available too.

That's a good point actually.

There's also the West Midlands Trains 170s, which will are due to go off lease in a couple of years when the 196s arrive.