Northern Dec 2022 Manchester area Timetable Consultation

[skyhigh]

As far as I'm aware (unless things have changed/sorted/upgraded since), ASDO on 195s, 331s & 397s has one slight technical issue....
It doesn't work reliably (even in manual override).

Manual override works fine in my experience - unfortunately it's the A bit that's the current issue with the ASDO system

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no self dispatch at Lancaster.

There is currently no self-dispatch at Lancaster.

People speak as if such things are immutable. They are not.

 

[Zooty]

There is currently no self-dispatch at Lancaster.

People speak as if such things are immutable. They are not.

And people also speak as if funding is unlimited. It is not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And people also speak as if funding is unlimited. It is not.

Switching to self-dispatch of shorter trains at Lancaster would save money, not cost it.

 

[Zooty]

Switching to self-dispatch of shorter trains at Lancaster would save money, not cost it.

You sure? It's assisted dispatch for a reason. Platform 3 isn't going to magically straighten itself. I'm fairly sure there'd need to be signalling changes and I'm sure safety reviews don't come cheap either. And I'm not sure it would be in any way acceptable. Self-dispatch... concave platform... late night train... merry passengers... perhaps not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You sure? It's assisted dispatch for a reason. Platform 3 isn't going to magically straighten itself. I'm fairly sure there'd need to be signalling changes and I'm sure safety reviews don't come cheap either. And I'm not sure it would be in any way acceptable. Self-dispatch... concave platform... late night train... merry passengers... perhaps not.

Without wishing to start a debate on a certain three letters, the units involved have bodyside cameras which negate any issues surrounding curved platforms. I wouldn't bet on GBR not pursuing the options that relate to them...

 

[Esker-pades]

I know the timetabling is built around Manchester, but it is still really unhelpful in terms of public engagement for it to be described by Northern as a consultation about the Manchester area. Why would a member of the public who travels in Leeds or Morecambe think from the title that there is anything relevant for them to look at?

It's a good point.

The explanation (I think) is that the Dec '22 change involves not just the Manchester Recovery TaskForce (MRTF), but also significant changes to the structure of the WCML and West Midlands timetable. What Northern may well have done is take all their routes that are affected by the Dec '22 work and put it under MRTF.

The Leeds/Lancaster-Morecambe service changes are minor tinkering as would be expected with any timetable change. However, because they've been changed as part of the Dec '22 re-write, they're part of the consultation.

 

[Geeves]

A few test trains have ran recently overnight on sets 195s and 331s carrying the most up-to-date ASDO software, by all accounts the testing was a success. In regards to staff late on at Lancaster even if they were taken off despatch duties it likely they would be there for customer service reasons so no money would be being saved. A station the size the Lancaster is not likely to be left with no staff at all late at night.

To bring things back on topic its disappointing to see the Buxton line still hourly, the station I use the most is still two hourly meaning I will still be stuck using the car. Fingers crossed for a future uplift!

 

[Bletchleyite]

MKC is considerably bigger and more intensively served and I believe only has a contract security guard late on. Better than no late evening service.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the CLC line via Warrington Central, it is good to see that Hunts Cross has Northern trains calling, even though it should be more frequent than every 60 minutes (same for Mon-Sat) so as to provide interchange with Merseyrail within the exact same station area.

However, Sankey for Penketh, Padgate, Glazebrook, Chassen Road, Humphrey Park, and Trafford Park still have 'No Sunday Service". It is noted that the M62 is nearby and wil not help to encourage people to leave cars at home and use public transport, hence how I have argued previously for the Merseyrail Southport - Hunts Cross to be extended to Warrington Central every 15 minutes post HS2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding the CLC line via Warrington Central, it is good to see that Hunts Cross has Northern trains calling, even though it should be more frequent than every 60 minutes (same for Mon-Sat) so as to provide interchange with Merseyrail within the exact same station area.

That is what South Parkway is for.

However, Sankey for Penketh, Padgate, Glazebrook, Chassen Road, Humphrey Park, and Trafford Park still have 'No Sunday Service". It is noted that the M62 is nearby and wil not help to encourage people to leave cars at home and use public transport, hence how I have argued previously for the Merseyrail Southport - Hunts Cross to be extended to Warrington Central every 15 minutes post HS2.

Glazebrook is in the middle of a field and doesn't really need any service, at least until someone builds a load of houses around it which I imagine will happen at some point. I agree with you on the rest, though, there is no room for "no Sunday service" anywhere in 2021, though I would say the Marston Vale does worse, with no Bank Holiday service either - does anywhere on Northern bar the Parliamentaries have that?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Glazebrook is in the middle of a field and doesn't really need any service, at least until someone builds a load of houses around it which I imagine will happen at some point. I agree with you on the rest, though, there is no room for "no Sunday service" anywhere in 2021, though I would say the Marston Vale does worse, with no Bank Holiday service either - does anywhere on Northern bar the Parliamentaries have that?

The actual settlement that is served by Glazebrook station is that of Rixton-with-Glazebrook, with a population of circa 2000. It is situated within the administered area of the unitary authority of Warrington, about four miles east of Warrington town centre.

 

[The Bear]

Given how quiet 2 of those stations are (and Lancaster would be at that time of night) and given how we are talking about a 5 car train, I don't entirely get why staff are even needed. The guard could dispatch and there could be a side gate just as there is at a good many other stations not staffed for the full period of service. For Lancaster you could even close the bridge off with only the northbound side in use.

But this is classic railway.

Staff are needed for safety (& security) it's quite simple.

A guard can not prevent a person who is on the platform from attempting to board/get too close to a train while it's departing a platform. Particularly as most modern rolling stock where the guard doesn't have a window to look out of, the only time they'll know if something is wrong is when the bits come flying past the window.
You could argue that 397s have bodyside CCTV cameras but they only look along the side of the train. By the time the driver has noticed something, bearing in mind they've got other things to be watching as well it'll most likely be too late......

I do feel you're not very familiar with the local situation at any of those stations.....
Lancaster;
Only the down-side platforms 1,2&3 have a side gate, which is regularly used by bike thieves who steal from the cycle racks next to said gate.
A hostel for rehabilitating drug users opened just across the road a few years ago, without going into detail it has resulted in several incidents on the station. Add to that numerous trespass incidents & one-under attempts which have all been delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with its close proximity to the city centre it probably would become a hot bed of antisocial behaviour, vandalism & some successful one-under's.

Oxenholme;
Quiet? I don't think so....
Pre-covid usage figures collated by the local user group showed Oxenholme generates more London traffic that the other two Cumbrian WCML stations combined. Also pre-covid it had the second highest increase in passenger numbers of any AWC run station.
Post-covid the station is once again busy with those heading into/out of the Lakes & over into the western Dales.
The stations curved platforms and roof pillars create poor visibility & blind spots. In the case of plat1 is also narrow.
Unlike Lancaster all non-stop trains pass through the platforms at up to 90mph.
The station is also a popular shortcut to/from the pub at the top of the hill.
In the last few years there's been two successful one-under's, several attempted one-under's, plus various incidents of public on the track (intoxicated or otherwise). Again all delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with its out of the way location, close proximity to Oxenholme Village and the housing estates on the western side of Kendal it would again probably end up being a victim of antisocial behaviour and probably more one-under's....

Penrith;
The only exit from the station is from the platform1 side, via a subway with steps.
Penrith's curved platforms (which is even more severe than Oxenholme) makes visibility an issue, even for a 5 coach train.
The new overbridge with it's lifts would need remote monitoring but still not ideal if anyone got stuck in one of them as no doubt it would take considerable time for help to arrive if there were no staff on site.
The station is very close to the town centre and has again been the scene of antisocial behaviour from those who travel up from Carlisle for a night out in Penrith & travel back again over the years.
Also over last few years there's been three (maybe four) successful one-under's, plus various incidents of public on the track (again intoxicated or otherwise). Again all delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with it's close proximity to the town centre etc, it will end up being vandalised and more incidents of trespass and one-unders.

 

[IanXC]

That is what South Parkway is for.



Glazebrook is in the middle of a field and doesn't really need any service, at least until someone builds a load of houses around it which I imagine will happen at some point. I agree with you on the rest, though, there is no room for "no Sunday service" anywhere in 2021, though I would say the Marston Vale does worse, with no Bank Holiday service either - does anywhere on Northern bar the Parliamentaries have that?

Doncaster - Scunthorpe stopper doesn't run on Sundays, so Crowle and Althorpe have no Sunday service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Staff are needed for safety (& security) it's quite simple.

No, they really aren't. There are stations unstaffed or with only a security guard at night all over the country, many of them busier and bigger than those ones.

It's the railway being old-fashioned again.

A guard can not prevent a person who is on the platform from attempting to board/get too close to a train while it's departing a platform. Particularly as most modern rolling stock where the guard doesn't have a window to look out of, the only time they'll know if something is wrong is when the bits come flying past the window.
You could argue that 397s have bodyside CCTV cameras but they only look along the side of the train. By the time the driver has noticed something, bearing in mind they've got other things to be watching as well it'll most likely be too late......

OK, so every unstaffed station in the country is unsafe, then? Nonsense.

I do feel you're not very familiar with the local situation at any of those stations.....
Lancaster;
Only the down-side platforms 1,2&3 have a side gate, which is regularly used by bike thieves who steal from the cycle racks next to said gate.
A hostel for rehabilitating drug users opened just across the road a few years ago, without going into detail it has resulted in several incidents on the station. Add to that numerous trespass incidents & one-under attempts which have all been delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with its close proximity to the city centre it probably would become a hot bed of antisocial behaviour, vandalism & some successful one-under's.

So it perhaps needs a contract security guard 24/7 then? But not railway staff. I know Lancaster quite well and that side gate wouldn't suit for the reason you state, but another one could be provided. Only platform 3 is of relevance to the service under discussion.

I must admit I didn't know about the hostel, though (the area around Lancaster station has always seemed quite pleasant and leafy to me, other than the bike theft problem at the back on an isolated path) - which building is that?

Oxenholme;
Quiet? I don't think so....
Pre-covid usage figures collated by the local user group showed Oxenholme generates more London traffic that the other two Cumbrian WCML stations combined. Also pre-covid it had the second highest increase in passenger numbers of any AWC run station.

Not at 11 o'clock at night.

Post-covid the station is once again busy with those heading into/out of the Lakes & over into the western Dales.
The stations curved platforms and roof pillars create poor visibility & blind spots. In the case of plat1 is also narrow.
Unlike Lancaster all non-stop trains pass through the platforms at up to 90mph.
The station is also a popular shortcut to/from the pub at the top of the hill.
In the last few years there's been two successful one-under's, several attempted one-under's, plus various incidents of public on the track (intoxicated or otherwise). Again all delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with its out of the way location, close proximity to Oxenholme Village and the housing estates on the western side of Kendal it would again probably end up being a victim of antisocial behaviour and probably more one-under's....

Is Cheddington (similarly located) a victim of antisocial behaviour etc? Tring?

Penrith;
The only exit from the station is from the platform1 side, via a subway with steps.
Penrith's curved platforms (which is even more severe than Oxenholme) makes visibility an issue, even for a 5 coach train.
The new overbridge with it's lifts would need remote monitoring but still not ideal if anyone got stuck in one of them as no doubt it would take considerable time for help to arrive if there were no staff on site.
The station is very close to the town centre and has again been the scene of antisocial behaviour from those who travel up from Carlisle for a night out in Penrith & travel back again over the years.
Also over last few years there's been three (maybe four) successful one-under's, plus various incidents of public on the track (again intoxicated or otherwise). Again all delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with it's close proximity to the town centre etc, it will end up being vandalised and more incidents of trespass and one-unders.

I know this one far less well so I won't comment to those. But overall, except for contract security which may be needed in some locations, the insistence on platform staffing on smaller InterCity stations for safety reasons is counter to the large number of non-InterCity stations which deal with far higher passenger loadings that don't have any platform staffing.

The actual settlement that is served by Glazebrook station is that of Rixton-with-Glazebrook, with a population of circa 2000. It is situated within the administered area of the unitary authority of Warrington, about four miles east of Warrington town centre.

Years ago in the days of horse and cart it probably was (see also Swanbourne station for a similar example), but nowadays if they're going to use the train they'll drive to Irlam for the better service.

 

[Geeves]

When the questioned the majority of passengers state they feel safer with trained TOC staff in attendance, they generally don't enjoy hi-vis clad security bashing them around, the amount of complaints on here alone backs that up. I am not sure what the obsession with destaffing is?

Anyway again bringing the subject back from Milton Keynes, the Atherton line as a prelude to the changes coming next year will be seeing 195s on some of its services on the Leeds work once the 153s go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the questioned the majority of passengers state they feel safer with trained TOC staff in attendance, they generally don't enjoy hi-vis clad security bashing them around, the amount of complaints on here alone backs that up. I am not sure what the obsession with destaffing is?

I'm not suggesting destaffing anything, I'm suggesting that it would be perfectly OK, with a few tweaks, for one train (the late evening TPE) to call at Lancaster, Oxenholme and possibly Penrith with few or no staff on duty to mitigate the last Barrow being pulled 40 minutes earlier, thus making rail useless for an evening trip to Manchester. I'm sure few if any people would prefer the train not to call than for it to call with no staff (or just a security guard) in attendance.

Anyway again bringing the subject back from Milton Keynes, the Atherton line as a prelude to the changes coming next year will be seeing 195s on some of its services on the Leeds work once the 153s go.

Good stuff, that's the sort of route they are perfect for.

 

[adrock1976]

There are some 6 car workings to Barrow now (mainly to move units around), however the rear set is usually locked throughout from the airport as it can easily take 5-10 minutes to lock the set out and this isn't allowed for in the timetable.

Issue with class 195 in multiple as a 4 car is there are no butterfly switches on the outside and the external crew access will not work with the drivers key in. So all passengers for Dalton and Roose would have to be in the rear set with the guard. This risks people who are not in the correct part from Ulverston being overcarried as there's no gangway between sets, and there are also accessibility issues as there is no wheelchair space (or lugs for a ramp) at the local door at the front of the rear set so it makes the train at Dalton and Roose (currently accessible)inaccessible for wheelchair users. There would likely be the same problems on the Windermere line.


Think it's 20 or 21 3 cars heading east, so that will leave 10 or 11 in the west. Thats a maximum of 5 six car diagrams (more realistically I think there would be 4) certainly not enough to cover all the Manchester to Blackpool's as at present. 323s (single units) likely to be more common on Wigan to Liverpool stoppers from Dec 22.

Regarding Dalton and Roose, are those request stops?

If so, the passengers would be with the guard in the rear set.

 

[geoffk]

Many of these changes seem like "rollback" to the timetable of pre-May 2018 - particularly those in south Manchester where both Crewe to Liverpool and Alderley Edge to Southport curtailed at Manchester.

The most frustrating part of it is that I raised my concerns with TfGM and Network Rail in December 2017 that extending these services to Liverpool and Southport was unworkable due to lack capacity / existing congestion through Castlefield. I was reassured the May 2018 timetable changes would be good for passengers with new services and improved reliability!

One outcome seems to be that there will be no through services from Bolton or Salford Crescent to Stockport. May 2018 had two per hour but close together in both directions. Stockport will have two per hour to/from Oxford Road, both of these Liverpool trains.

 

[Starmill]

But this is classic railway

Indeed. For the benefit of two trains they'd say you need one or even two staff on eight hour shifts. No doubt on enhanced night rates. The answer needs to be to find a way to do it cheaper. As is the answer to many railway questions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. For the benefit of two trains they'd say you need one or even two staff on eight hour shifts. No doubt on enhanced night rates. The answer needs to be to find a way to do it cheaper. As is the answer to many railway questions.

There has been another case like this in the past few years - Virgin/Avanti wanted to provide a late evening service to Nuneaton but LM (I think it was still when they were about) refused to staff for it. I seem to recall it actually came up when people arrived at a locked station!

 

[Starmill]

There has been another case like this in the past few years - Virgin/Avanti wanted to provide a late evening service to Nuneaton but LM (I think it was still when they were about) refused to staff for it. I seem to recall it actually came up when people arrived at a locked station!

Indeed. The loads on the 2300 always were dismal too, might have helped if it had been able to set down at Nuneaton as planned, and Tamworth would also be possible.

 

[_toommm_]

Regarding Dalton and Roose, are those request stops?

If so, the passengers would be with the guard in the rear set.

No they’re not. I believe it’s Rose though that is currently local door operation only, at least in the direction of Barrow.

 

[TUC]

Staff are needed for safety (& security) it's quite simple.

A guard can not prevent a person who is on the platform from attempting to board/get too close to a train while it's departing a platform. Particularly as most modern rolling stock where the guard doesn't have a window to look out of, the only time they'll know if something is wrong is when the bits come flying past the window.
You could argue that 397s have bodyside CCTV cameras but they only look along the side of the train. By the time the driver has noticed something, bearing in mind they've got other things to be watching as well it'll most likely be too late......

I do feel you're not very familiar with the local situation at any of those stations.....
Lancaster;
Only the down-side platforms 1,2&3 have a side gate, which is regularly used by bike thieves who steal from the cycle racks next to said gate.
A hostel for rehabilitating drug users opened just across the road a few years ago, without going into detail it has resulted in several incidents on the station. Add to that numerous trespass incidents & one-under attempts which have all been delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with its close proximity to the city centre it probably would become a hot bed of antisocial behaviour, vandalism & some successful one-under's.

Oxenholme;
Quiet? I don't think so....
Pre-covid usage figures collated by the local user group showed Oxenholme generates more London traffic that the other two Cumbrian WCML stations combined. Also pre-covid it had the second highest increase in passenger numbers of any AWC run station.
Post-covid the station is once again busy with those heading into/out of the Lakes & over into the western Dales.
The stations curved platforms and roof pillars create poor visibility & blind spots. In the case of plat1 is also narrow.
Unlike Lancaster all non-stop trains pass through the platforms at up to 90mph.
The station is also a popular shortcut to/from the pub at the top of the hill.
In the last few years there's been two successful one-under's, several attempted one-under's, plus various incidents of public on the track (intoxicated or otherwise). Again all delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with its out of the way location, close proximity to Oxenholme Village and the housing estates on the western side of Kendal it would again probably end up being a victim of antisocial behaviour and probably more one-under's....

Penrith;
The only exit from the station is from the platform1 side, via a subway with steps.
Penrith's curved platforms (which is even more severe than Oxenholme) makes visibility an issue, even for a 5 coach train.
The new overbridge with it's lifts would need remote monitoring but still not ideal if anyone got stuck in one of them as no doubt it would take considerable time for help to arrive if there were no staff on site.
The station is very close to the town centre and has again been the scene of antisocial behaviour from those who travel up from Carlisle for a night out in Penrith & travel back again over the years.
Also over last few years there's been three (maybe four) successful one-under's, plus various incidents of public on the track (again intoxicated or otherwise). Again all delt with by....... The station staff.
If left unmanned with it's close proximity to the town centre etc, it will end up being vandalised and more incidents of trespass and one-unders.

So apart from the curved Penrith platform, just average issues similar to many towns .

 

[Starmill]

A guard can not prevent a person who is on the platform from attempting to board/get too close to a train while it's departing a platform. Particularly as most modern rolling stock where the guard doesn't have a window to look out of, the only time they'll know if something is wrong is when the bits come flying past the window.

This isn't considered an intractable though is it? If it were Lumo wouldn't be permitted to operate for example.

Glazebrook is in the middle of a field and doesn't really need any service, at least until someone builds a load of houses around it which I imagine will happen at some point. I agree with you on the rest, though, there is no room for "no Sunday service" anywhere in 2021, though I would say the Marston Vale does worse, with no Bank Holiday service either - does anywhere on Northern bar the Parliamentaries have that?

There's a good service to Hyde Central (and the other stations only served by the Rose Hill Marple trains, but this is the most significant) Monday to Saturday. No service on Sundays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't considered an intractable though is it? If it were Lumo wouldn't be permitted to operate for example.

Nor any other guard-dispatched station, e.g. all the south WCML local stations. They can lean out from a cab window but aren't required to work from there.

There's a good service to Hyde Central (and the other stations only served by the Rose Hill Marple trains, but this is the most significant) Monday to Saturday. No service on Sundays.

Bank Hols, though?

 

[Starmill]

Nor any other guard-dispatched station, e.g. all the south WCML local stations. They can lean out from a cab window but aren't required to work from there.

Indeed. Same as how generally Hull Trains and LNER have staff dispatch at LNER stations, but Northern, Grand Central and EMR* do not.

*except Doncaster and Peterborough, for whatever reason

Bank Hols, though?

A Saturday service began running on the Marston Vale line on Bank Holidays since 2018.

The next Bank Holiday in England is Monday 27 December. A timetable has been uploaded for then.

 

[CJ]

Although this is mostly Northern timetable related, this tweet is somewhat related as it is also part of the December 22 proposed timetable and involves both Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria stations:

TPE are consulting / proposing swapping the Liverpool - Scarborough and Manchester Piccadilly - Hull with each other (Liverpool - Hull and Manchester Piccadilly - Scarborough):

TransPennine Express is consulting on changes to timetables in December 2022. Proposes running Scarborough trains to Manchester Piccadilly not Liverpool and Hull trains to Liverpool not Piccadilly.

Credit to Philip Haigh on Twitter

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although this is mostly Northern timetable related, this tweet is somewhat related as it is also part of the December 22 proposed timetable and involves both Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria stations:

TPE are consulting / proposing swapping the Liverpool - Scarborough and Manchester Piccadilly - Hull with each other (Liverpool - Hull and Manchester Piccadilly - Scarborough):



Credit to Philip Haigh on Twitter

I can't imagine that will bother many people, as I very much doubt there are many through journeys from Liverpool that go past York other than to Newcastle, nor really the other way round.

 

[Greybeard33]

I can't imagine that will bother many people, as I very much doubt there are many through journeys from Liverpool that go past York other than to Newcastle, nor really the other way round.

The Northern Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds timetable does not show the eastern destinations of the TPE 5tph between Manchester and Leeds. However, it does show that the Piccadilly terminator (currently the Hull service) will run fast between Huddersfield and Stalybridge in off-peak hours, but call at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield and Mossley in the peaks. Together with the Huddersfield - Piccadilly stopper, that gives those four stations a 2tph service in the peaks.

The route swap detailed in the tweet will give Hull quicker services to/from Manchester as well as Liverpool, particularly in the peaks. Albeit serving Victoria not Piccadilly.

The downside is that Scarborough loses its longstanding direct Liverpool service and has slower Manchester journey times, especially in the peaks. While York goes down from 4tph to 3tph to Victoria, although it gets 2tph instead of 1tph direct to Piccadilly (Saltburn - Airport and Scarborough - Piccadilly).

Rumours on the Nova 3 thread suggest that the LHCS sets are to be transferred to the Saltburn and Cleethorpes routes, with all Scarborough services worked by 185s. 185s would be better suited to the calls at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield and Mossley.