Northern Dec 2022 Manchester area Timetable Consultation

[Bletchleyite]

I bet the pay when challenged are looking forward to having pairs of 331s working out of Leeds, everybody into the front unit with the guard stuck in the back unit

Northern could easily solve that issue by dumping the policy that causes it and allowing guards to unit-hop.

I visited Ardwick a few years ago using the morning train (the one from Hadfield) and was surprised at how many passengers alighted there (around 18). Although how many of those were simply alighting to walk the last mile due to not having a ticket is an unknown

To be fair there is employment around there in industrial units and scrapyards.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Northern could easily solve that issue by dumping the policy that causes it and allowing guards to unit-hop.

But the issue then is what happens when there's an issue involving the rear unit? I guess a job for travel safe officers?

 

[Watershed]

But the issue then is what happens when there's an issue involving the rear unit? I guess a job for travel safe officers?

Exactly the same as what happens on other TOCs where trains run without a member of staff in every portion of the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly the same as what happens on other TOCs where trains run without a member of staff in every portion of the train.

Precisely. It is not mandatory on the railway as a whole to have every unit staffed, even if ungangwayed. For instance LNR's 12-car 319 formations run with one unit with no staff at all, and the same units did on Thameslink for their entire life there. It's Northern's choice to do this.

The answer is that if there was an emergency on open line, the guard would have to put their hi-vis on and transfer between units via the ballast.

 

[Starmill]

But the issue then is what happens when there's an issue involving the rear unit? I guess a job for travel safe officers?

Same as would happen on a train without a second member of staff at all I guess.

 

[scrapy]

The answer is that if there was an emergency on open line, the guard would have to put their hi-vis on and transfer between units via the ballast.

Presumably then the guard would have to take their kit with them every time they transfer between units.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us not forget that according to the thread title, this is only a "consultation"....a word that can hide a myriad of possibilities, most of which will be safely ignored by the train operating company who will already have decided exactly what they intend to do.

Sorry for the cynicism, but I have been around for far too long to place my trust in the real motives for such a "consultation".

 

[Ianno87]

Let us not forget that according to the thread title, this is only a "consultation"....a word that can hide a myriad of possibilities, most of which will be safely ignored by the train operating company who will already have decided exactly what they intend to do.

Sorry for the cynicism, but I have been around for far too long to place my trust in the real motives for such a "consultation".

In practical term, there is simply very little that can be done to the timetable structure at such a late stage of Dec 22 is going to be hit. No conspiracy.

This is just an opportunity to catch any late tweaks - e.g. perhaps adding a peak stop or tweaking a connection time or something, depending what can be done without pulling the whole timetable apart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably then the guard would have to take their kit with them every time they transfer between units.

I don't know, ask a guard who actually does this in a TOC that permits it. It is not universally disallowed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In practical term, there is simply very little that can be done to the timetable structure at such a late stage of Dec 22 is going to be hit.

I thought the thread title referred to December 2022 ... not December 2021.

 

[IrishDave]

I thought the thread title referred to December 2022 ... not December 2021.

Correct. The TOCs must notify NR of any substantial planned changes at 55 weeks out - which I believe gives them until... tomorrow!

Even if they want to make minor changes beyond that, the consultation closes on 31st December 2021. The TOCs must bid their timetable to Network Rail by 40 weeks out from the Timetable Change date - which puts us somewhere around 4th March 2022, if my maths is correct. That's only two months to evaluate the feedback, figure out whether they can make any changes, and finalise the bid. Given how many TOCs are involved in this timetable change, that might as well be no time at all.

 

[Ianno87]

Correct. The TOCs must notify NR of any substantial planned changes at 55 weeks out - which I believe gives them until... tomorrow!

Even if they want to make minor changes beyond that, the consultation closes on 31st December 2021. The TOCs must bid their timetable to Network Rail by 40 weeks out from the Timetable Change date - which puts us somewhere around 4th March 2022, if my maths is correct. That's only two months to evaluate the feedback, figure out whether they can make any changes, and finalise the bid. Given how many TOCs are involved in this timetable change, that might as well be no time at all.

And last time TOCs (DfT) tried to excessively mess about with timetables too close to the day of the race, it didn't end well... (May 2018)

 

[nw1]

Ardwick is a bit useless at the moment, but given the way Manchester city centre is expanding outwards I think it's just biding its time. Once a week to keep it open would probably be OK.

That said I wonder if the footbridge is going to fall down first...

I remember first noticing Ardwick in around 1993, when it already had a close-to-parliamentary service, and noticed that it was a very run down and abandoned area so hardly surprising it didn't get much provision. Remarkable it's stayed open so long. (Actually I travelled into Piccadilly from the south first in 1989, but don't remember noticing it then).

Other visits to the area were also in the nineties, so I have to admit I am unaware of what the area looks like right now. However if there is realistic chance of development, I agree it needs to be kept open.

FWIW the first time I was aware of the name Ardwick was a family car when I was a child, which had come from the 'Martins Ardwick' garage, as we lived not too far from Manchester at the time.

In the same area though, travelling in from Stockport you pass one or two areas that look well-populated besides Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. I wonder if new stations in these areas (south of Longsight depot, sorry I can't be more specific) have ever been considered?


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2021 ==

Precisely. It is not mandatory on the railway as a whole to have every unit staffed, even if ungangwayed.

And of course it would have been very difficult for the 12-HAP (6 x 2 car) specials common in the peaks on the Southern in the 80s to have been staffed throughout!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the same area though, travelling in from Stockport you pass one or two areas that look well-populated besides Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. I wonder if new stations in these areas (south of Longsight depot, sorry I can't be more specific) have ever been considered?

The area is called Longsight, yes, it could do with a station (which could help regenerating what is quite a poor area) but I doubt that could be considered before HS2 phase 2B due to line capacity. Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel are enough of a nuisance.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The area is called Longsight, yes, it could do with a station (which could help regenerating what is quite a poor area) but I doubt that could be considered before HS2 phase 2B due to line capacity. Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel are enough of a nuisance.

Longsight, as regards public transport, is a veritable bus heaven which is very well patronised.

 

[Llama]

Latest passenger figures from DfT show passenger numbers for GB up to 76% on 8/11, the highest since March 2020. I would suspect that pass numbers on Northern might even be higher than that nominal average 76%.

 

[nw1]

The area is called Longsight, yes, it could do with a station (which could help regenerating what is quite a poor area) but I doubt that could be considered before HS2 phase 2B due to line capacity. Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel are enough of a nuisance.

I guess the issue is that the platforms are on either side of the 4-track: if there was a segregated 2-track fast, 2-track stopping, a high-frequency metro-type dedicated service could run without having to cross over the main tracks at the chosen terminus (Stockport?) with additional stops a possibility.

 

[WatcherZero]

I am glad the Wigan-Manchester shuttles via Chat Moss are back to full force, even if only in morning/evening peak's, now with a single stop in Eccles.
When was the last time if ever there was a direct Wigan-Eccles service?

This service will actually be really useful for people from Wigan that work in the Salford area and will half the travel time to Salford Quays.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am glad the Wigan-Manchester shuttles via Chat Moss are back to full force, even if only in morning/evening peak's, now with a single stop in Eccles.
When was the last time if ever there was a direct Wigan-Eccles service?

This service will actually be really useful for people from Wigan that work in the Salford area and will half the travel time to Salford Quays.

Is there much of a difference in mileage between the Manchester to Wigan routes via Chat Moss and via Bolton/Westhoughton?

In reply to your query about past times services between Wigan and Eccles, I think the LNWR ran such a service with intermediate stops at:-
Platt Bridge
Hindley Green
Howe Bridge
Tyldesley
Ellenbrook
Worsley
Monton Green

 

[TUC]

I know the timetabling is built around Manchester, but it is still really unhelpful in terms of public engagement for it to be described by Northern as a consultation about the Manchester area. Why would a member of the public who travels in Leeds or Morecambe think from the title that there is anything relevant for them to look at?

 

[Watershed]

Is there much of a difference in mileage between the Manchester to Wigan routes via Chat Moss and via Bolton/Westhoughton?

Measuring from Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western, the route via Atherton is the shortest at 17 miles and 58 chains.

The route via the Chat Moss is 21mi45ch whilst the route via Westhoughton is 20mi12ch.

So all are within 4 miles of each other.

 

[47434]

See there's no provision for the 2tph along the Mid Cheshire line.

I think there are a number of challenges infrastructure wise needed to achieve that

 

[geoffk]

I think there are a number of challenges infrastructure wise needed to achieve that

Wasn't the second train per hour only intended to go to Greenbank (or Northwich and eventually Sandbach/Crewe)? Could the mostly single line between Stockport and Altrincham cope with a second train per hour, plus freight (and a station at Cheadle)?

 

[WatcherZero]

Is there much of a difference in mileage between the Manchester to Wigan routes via Chat Moss and via Bolton/Westhoughton?

Distances are similar but linespeeds much higher and one intermediate stop vs 9 or 10 stops.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think there are a number of challenges infrastructure wise needed to achieve that

Upgrades to the infrastructure are in the pipeline to start sometime soon.

Wasn't the second train per hour only intended to go to Greenbank (or Northwich and eventually Sandbach/Crewe)?

Greenbank was indeed the original plan but for whatever reason, it was decided that changing the routing of the TfW was the better plan. I still don't know if it is, but we have to take what we're given (gift horses and all).

Could the mostly single line between Stockport and Altrincham cope with a second train per hour, plus freight (and a station at Cheadle)?

Yes, because the thing that killed it this time were timings in the Mouldsworth area preventing farm crossings from being used. There was to be a train around every 15 minutes.

 

[js1000]

Many of these changes seem like "rollback" to the timetable of pre-May 2018 - particularly those in south Manchester where both Crewe to Liverpool and Alderley Edge to Southport curtailed at Manchester.

The most frustrating part of it is that I raised my concerns with TfGM and Network Rail in December 2017 that extending these services to Liverpool and Southport was unworkable due to lack capacity / existing congestion through Castlefield. I was reassured the May 2018 timetable changes would be good for passengers with new services and improved reliability!

 

[The Bear]

I think that this was planned in the form of a 2310 Manchester Airport to Carlisle service which formed the first Liverpool bound train the next day. Presumably such ideas are in the bin now as nobody wants to pay for them.

Ah, yes, I think I recall that one being mentioned before. It does seem TPE have generally trimmed late evening trains, which is a shame if permanent.

They did introduce the 2310 Manchester Airport - Carlisle in December 2019 but without the Lancaster stop, I presume because Avanti would have had to keep the station open longer, staff employed later which I guess would have been a stumbling block.

Changing the last Piccadilly to Lancaster from 2225 to 2150 puts us back to the old days of pretty much a guaranteed hotel if you want to go to "evening things" in Manchester.

The subject of the 23:10 Man Airport-Carlisle has already been covered in another thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-scottish-route.223544/

driver9000 said:
Do you mean the one that arrived at Carlisle in the early hours and left around 05:45? If so that was meant to be in the December 2019 timetable but never ran. The morning path picks up at Oxenholme as the 06:26 to Liverpool.

The 05:57 Carlisle to Edinburgh was always very lightly loaded in the short time it ran before the stripped out emergency timetable kicked in with the first lockdown.

Yes, 1M89 06:26 Oxenholme-Liverpool was originally planned to have started from Carlisle formed off a 23:15 Man Airport-Carlisle.
After the plan had to be changed, the 23:15 ex Man Airport then terminated at Preston with the unit stabling until running empty to Oxenholme the next morning for 1M89.

The 05:57 Carlisle-Edinburgh was formed from a unit which ran empty from Preston.

Also still missing are the 22:12 Edinburgh-Manchester (which was introduced from May 2018 timetable

23:10 Man Airport-Carlisle did appear in the system for a short time but was revised to terminate at Preston quite a while prior to the commencement of the timetable.
Which seems to have been a reoccurring theme for TPE's late night WCML services since the first late night service was introduced in the May 2018 timetable.
The three non-24hr stations in question are currently run at maximum hours (or in some cases more than max) for the staff they currently have.
More staff is always a great idea but then £££ gets mentioned........

It is actually possible to run 6 car to Barrow, but you have to lock up the back unit north of Carnforth. I've seen it done in TPE days.

4 car to Barrow is certainly doable to Barrow with all coaches in use, I've also seen that, might require local door at some of the smaller stations.

I think I've seen 4 to Windermere before, too (double 156), but it might similarly require local door at intermediates.

Around 4 years or so ago one of the Windermere diagrams was indeed booked a pair of 156s on a Saturday. The second unit becoming available because of the Blackpool electrification etc. This was prior to the crews being refreshed on 153s.
The main issue for 2x156 on the Windermere branch is Staveley which can only accommodate 3 coaches. So the 2x156 4 coach formation was local door only at Staveley unless there were large numbers of passengers then the conductor would have to open additional doors using the external butterflies.
The first Saturday of double 156s just so happened to coincide with the beer festival in Staveley, the conductors not finding it easy to get down a packed narrow platform to open additional doors.
Since then occasional 2x195/0 has turned up in lieu of a 195/1, most conductors choosing to work the train on the branch with the rear set locked out as the ASDO can't be trusted.

The plan is simply to use the ASDO fitted to 331s. It's all been assessed already.

As far as I'm aware (unless things have changed/sorted/upgraded since), ASDO on 195s, 331s & 397s has one slight technical issue....
It doesn't work reliably (even in manual override).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The subject of the 23:10 Man Airport-Carlisle has already been covered in another thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-scottish-route.223544/

23:10 Man Airport-Carlisle did appear in the system for a short time but was revised to terminate at Preston quite a while prior to the commencement of the timetable.
Which seems to have been a reoccurring theme for TPE's late night WCML services since the first late night service was introduced in the May 2018 timetable.
The three non-24hr stations in question are currently run at maximum hours (or in some cases more than max) for the staff they currently have.
More staff is always a great idea but then £££ gets mentioned........

Given how quiet 2 of those stations are (and Lancaster would be at that time of night) and given how we are talking about a 5 car train, I don't entirely get why staff are even needed. The guard could dispatch and there could be a side gate just as there is at a good many other stations not staffed for the full period of service. For Lancaster you could even close the bridge off with only the northbound side in use.

But this is classic railway.

 

[sonic2009]

I've noticed along the Mid-Cheshire line that if a 156 + 150 turns up that the guard has to open the doors with the butterflies, must cause issues at several stops along the line.

So hopefully diagrams will change to avoid this in new timetables.

 

[Zooty]

Given how quiet 2 of those stations are (and Lancaster would be at that time of night) and given how we are talking about a 5 car train, I don't entirely get why staff are even needed. The guard could dispatch and there could be a side gate just as there is at a good many other stations not staffed for the full period of service. For Lancaster you could even close the bridge off with only the northbound side in use.

But this is classic railway.

There is no self dispatch at Lancaster.