Northern Delay Repay.

[sonic2009]

So I was delayed last Sunday using Northern in the Manchester area.

I held a System One All Modes ticket priced at £10.

I've put in the delay repay claim for it to be rejected with the following reasons :

We are currently not in a position to offer Delay Repay compensation for
multi-modal tickets (i.e. tickets that are valid on other modes of transport
in addition to rail) as we do not control the terms and conditions of these
tickets. We have been in discussions with our client, Rail North Partnership,
and they are committed to providing a seamless travel experience to all
passengers between different types of transport and different operators.

Anyone shed some light on why they reject the use of these tickets for delay repay?

But have in the past accepted the GM Wayfarer for a delay repay claim, this was going back 2 years though.

 

[Snow1964]

This is an example of doing half a job, integrating ticket usage, but not adding same ticket to delay repay system.

I am guessing here, but the ticket is accepted by gates, but not tracked, and to prevent fraudulent claims they have excluded it from delay repay.

Of course common sense says if they can take a share of revenue from this ticket type, it would be possible to take a share of refunds too. But clearly no one has bothered to make something work.

 

[_toommm_]

To the OP:

I’ve had success claiming on multi-modal tickets, not through delay repay, but through emailing customer services and claiming under the Consumer Rights Act. If the fault was Northern’s, they’ll compensate you. If the fault was someone else’s E.g. congestion, they won’t. See an email exchange from a few years ago when I claimed from Northern with a GM Countycard:

Spoiler: Email One

Dear Tom

Thank you for getting in touch with Northern and I am sorry that you were previously advised in error to apply for delay repay compensation.

I am also sorry to hear about the disruption you have experienced. Please be assured that we are committed to operating a punctual train service on all of our routes, continually reviewing and monitoring the cause of all delays to our trains, to ensure that appropriate measures are put in place to reduce their recurrence wherever this is possible.

Under the consumer rights act customers are entitled to claim compensation if the train operator fails to provide the service with reasonable care and skill, However our delay repay policy entitles customers to compensation regardless of fault. At present multi modal tickets are not eligible for delay repay compensation scheme.

I can see from our records that on the 18th July 2019 the 07:31 Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green was delayed due to congestion and then the decision was made in conjunction with Network Rail to cancel some of the booked station stops. When rail services are disrupted to a substantial extent then Operational Control have a formal duty to restore the train plan as quickly as possible and attempt to minimise the overall disruption that has been caused to the network. In order to achieve this then a decision may be made whereby some stations that the train in question is scheduled to stop at will be omitted in an attempt to reach their terminating station at the scheduled time (or as close to it as possible). I would like to reiterate my apologies for the inconvenience that this will have caused you but please bear in mind that these decisions are not made lightly and are done with the intention of reducing overall disruption to the entire network which unfortunately led to your station being skipped on this occasion. As the disruption experienced on this day was due to congestion of the network I am afraid that no compensation would be due under the Consumer Rights Act as the disruption was out of Northern's control.

On the 22nd and 24th July I can see that the 07:31 Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green and the 09:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green respectively were delayed leaving the depot. This could have been for a number of reasons and so to determine if you are eligible for compensation I am making further enquiries to find out who was at fault for these delays.

I will be in touch shortly with the outcome. I reiterate my apologies for the inconvenience and frustration caused by these delays and if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Kind regards
[name redacted]
Customer Complaints Manager

Spoiler: Email Two

Dear Tom

Thank you for your patience whilst we have been investigating your complaint.

Our Performance team has been in touch in regards to the following services:

2A92 22nd July 2019 07:31 Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green - train was late from depot

2A94 24th July 2019 09:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green - 25 minutes late due to being late from depot and then stations cancelled to re-stabilise the network

Both of these services were recorded as being late from the depot due to train faults and I apologise for the inconvenience this caused to your journeys. As the disruption was the fault of Northern, we are able to compensate you under the Consumer Rights Act. Where a multi-modal ticket has been provided we usually would provide complimentary Northern tickets, therefore I will follow this email up with two return Northern vouchers for you to use towards any journey on Northern services. Please expect to receive them in the post within 10 working days.

If you have any questions or if I can help with anything else. please let me know.

Kind regards
[name redacted]
Customer Complaints Manager

 

[Kite159]

Make a complaint, then if they still won't budge then take it to the rail ombudsman as that will cost them more in admin dealing with the complaint than the value they would have paid out. There is no mention (that I can see) on the Northern delay repay FAQ (https://help.northernrailway.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360006092698) that certain tickets are excluded due to them being "unable to control the T&Cs". I doubt Northern have much say in the T&Cs of other rail ranger products which are only valid on a tiny portion of Northern's services [West Midlands Day Ranger]. Only a small mention on the "why have you rejected my claim".

I am guessing here, but the ticket is accepted by gates, but not tracked, and to prevent fraudulent claims they have excluded it from delay repay.

No different to a Rail only rover product, they can be accepted by gates but unless it has a barcode can't be tracked at what trains someone uses.

 

[yorkie]

Yes Northern like to pull off this trick; most people give up and they are banking on people not pursuing it.

Even though the amount due will be small, I would encourage anyone on a multimodal ticket to put a claim in, on principle.

I would also ask Northern to compensate you with a complimentary travel ticket; they may not do this, but it effectively costs them no actual money on their books while being of potentially high value to you.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[sonic2009]

Must be the swiftest response ever from the customer relations team. And the incorrect one also.

See link to emails from yesterday and my attached supposed bus only ticket from Diamond :

On 15/11/2021, 06:03 Northern Railway <[email protected]> wrote:

Good Morning,

Thank you for contacting Northern.

I have checked your claim and I can see it will be rejected due to you having a multi-modal ticket.

This claim will be rejected as it does not meet delay repay requirements for tickets. All customers holding multi-modal season tickets issued on behalf of a PTE i.e. Merseytravel Trio / RailPass, TfGM Countycard, Metro (WYPTE) Mcard / Metrocard and Travel South Yorkshire (SYPTE) SY Connect+ / Travelmaster Gold etc are not entitled to claim for compensation via Delay Repay.

Due to the multi modal nature of the ticket this can no longer be accepted because this can be used on multiple forms of transport and in the event of service disruption to our trains there are often alternative means to still make the journey. If you were to purchase a rail-only ticket then you would of course be eligible for any compensation policies that are included with rail-only travel (such as Delay Repay).


I understand this is not the response you had hoped for, should you wish to address this further please contact our complaints team at [email protected].

Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards,


Northern Trains Ltd Delay Repay

My response this morning at 07:00

S, and Complaints.
Although you mention that there are alternative means during disruption this often makes people late, as other methods can still be slow. I should be able to use the fastest mode available.
And you've mentioned that you don't accept tickets issued of behalf of a PTE. There is no mention of this on your website under the delay repay section :
https://help.northernrailway.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360006092698
I wish to now claim under the consumer rights act as I feel the reason for delay were your fault.
Under the consumer rights act customers are entitled to claim compensation if the train operator fails to provide the service with reasonable care and skill.
Please investigate both claims and get back to me.

Reponse from Northern customer complaints at 13:34 15/11/2021

Dear xxxx


Thank you for contacting Northern

I am very sorry to hear of the experience you had travelling on the 7th November between Bolton and Moston, please allow me to apologise for any stress and inconvenience this caused to you.

I have reviewed the information you have kindly provided to our Delay Repay Team and the Diamond North West Ticket is for Bus travel only.

However if you have a Systemone Travelcard for bus, train and tram travel across Greater Manchester then may I please ask for a photo of the Travelcard and a photo of the receipt showing if travel was for 1, 7 or 28 days.

Thank you in advance.

Kind regards

Customer Complaints Manager

My reponse just now :

No your looking incorrectly at the ticket. If the ticket is bought on a bus service it will show the operators ticket logo obviously as you bought it through the machine they operate. Example attached showing if you just purchase the bus and tram option FROM Stagecoach. The one from Diamond is the All Modes valid on bus, tram and train. Hence All Modes.


The ticket is a System 1 All Modes, bought on the bus as linked to how to buy from System One Website.

Please see attached screenshot from website.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards.

 

[yorkie]

Hopefully they will pay up now.

But if they don't, ask if you are in deadlock, which will enable you to escalate the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.

 

[AlterEgo]

What was the reason for the delay?

 

[sonic2009]

What was the reason for the delay?

Train was cancelled, shown as running on time then cancelled at Blackburn.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem is you can only really claim under the CRA if you can argue the service wasn’t delivered with “reasonable care and skill”, so the actual cause of the delay (or cancellation) is quite important.

 

[robbeech]

So we have given up with the transport minister’s statement saying that delay repay should be payable on the rail element of multimodal tickets then? Are we just allowing them to get away with that one now?

 

[AlterEgo]

So we have given up with the transport minister’s statement saying that delay repay should be payable on the rail element of multimodal tickets then? Are we just allowing them to get away with that one now?

It makes you wonder what influence the minister has on his own department, doesn’t it?

 

[Haywain]

It makes you wonder what influence the minister has on his own department, doesn’t it?

It makes me wonder whether the minister knows what he's talking about.

 

[SteveM70]

It makes me wonder whether the minister knows what he's talking about.

Or whether what he says in public and what he tells his officials and Northern are one and the same

 

[sonic2009]

Northern have replied and sending me 1 return ticket.

 

[robbeech]

It makes me wonder whether the minister knows what he's talking about.

Why should the passenger suffer here?

 

[_toommm_]

Northern have replied and sending me 1 return ticket.

One return ticket is for a delay of 60-119 minutes. Assuming that’s the delay you incurred, is that accurate?

 

[Haywain]

Why should the passenger suffer here?

I'm not sure that I have suggested that the passenger should suffer.

 

[robbeech]

I'm not sure that I have suggested that the passenger should suffer.

Indeed not, however the fact is that rightly or wrongly (and I’m sure anyone who is passenger focussed will agree rightly) they claimed that delay repay should be paid on these tickets. However, due to the way that the railway is entirely unregulated in real world terms, start to finish, they ignore all rules, laws, guidelines and anything else because they know that there is not a single person that will and in most cases can do anything about it in order to stop them behaving how they want.

The railway gets to keep a portion of multimodal tickets, they know exactly how much that portion is for each ticket. They could very easily work out compensation based on the relative portion of the ticket and pay it out under the delay repay scheme as suggested by the transport minister. Infact the automated systems they have in place could likely do this for them with a fairly insignificant update. But what’s the point?
If you can just say no and nothing come of it, what’s the point?
It’s the reason they reject claims and make up frankly absurd excuses, because they know they’ll get away with it. It’s the reason they issue penalty fares when a rodent could understand it isn’t due because they know they’ll get away with it.
The railway would kick its own grandmother down a flight of stairs for a quid.

Even if there was no intention of this being payable, it was said regardless and no statement to the contrary has ever been made. The passenger should not have their rights removed based on the incompetence of someone such as the transport minister in the same way as they should not have their rights removed by the railway trying to make a cheeky buck here and there.

 

[sonic2009]

One return ticket is for a delay of 60-119 minutes. Assuming that’s the delay you incurred, is that accurate?

Yes 60 mins.

 

[Haywain]

Even if there was no intention of this being payable, it was said regardless and no statement to the contrary has ever been made. The passenger should not have their rights removed based on the incompetence of someone such as the transport minister in the same way as they should not have their rights removed by the railway trying to make a cheeky buck here and there.

I have no idea what the minister may or may not have said or when, and I entirely agree that the rights of the passenger should not be riding on the whim of what a minister chooses to say. That said, I still doubt that Grant Shapps would have much idea what a multi-modal ticket is.

 

[Kite159]

Good news on getting a return journey out of Northern

Imagine if some of the London area operators refused to pay out delay repay when using a Travelcard citing that it's "Multimodal" you could have used a bus instead (without taking into account that a parallel bus service might not actually run on the train journey someone was trying to make, or it takes far longer than just waiting for the next train 30 minutes later]