Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

[newtownmgr]

Most will work remotely if needed but the railways (especially Northern) haven't adopted 21st century working practices.

Well if you can find away to allow me to drive my train on my PS5 I’ll happily work remotely.

As regards working practices, despite what the Dft/Rdg etc like to tell you & the media we have continually evolved in our working practices & they are vastly different from even 20 years ago. The Sunday issue isn’t down to the staff it’s down to the companies not willing to employ the correct amount of staff & the continued reliance on overtime. We now have a government who want to force Sundays on to drivers for a measly 4% when drivers on other companies have been paid handsomely to give them up. We will end up with the scenario of drivers on the same contracts but working for different companies with between £15 & £20k difference in pay. If they want a one size fits with everyone on the same contract then pay everyone the same.

Apologies to admin if this reply as gone off on a tangent but i believe it’s connected. I don’t think for one minute the disruption tomorrow is connected to the dispute other than many are getting fed up with putting themselves out for companies that don’t recognise that staff morale is rock bottom.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Given that Northern are offering £100 to West conductors just to come in for their booked jobs on the 24th/31st, but nothing for East, which understandably has gone down like a lead balloon, expect a lot of cancellations on the East due to no conductor!

 

[newtownmgr]

Given that Northern are offering £100 to West conductors just to come in for their booked jobs on the 24th/31st, but nothing for East, which understandably has gone down like a lead balloon, expect a lot of cancellations on the East due to no conductor!

Might be down to differences in contract. Commited on East compared to voluntary on West. But yes either way it will likely cause some resentment

 

[Gemz91]

This is absolutely correct. At my depot just 3 conductors have agreed to work ...... leaving some 90% of jobs uncovered. It also appears no one is interested in the £100 incentive

When I first joined the railways (not Northern) and Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday we were offered £100 signing on fee, and that was 11 years ago. Maybe if they upped the payment they might get a few more interested.

Still wouldn’t be worth the effort many though. Christmas Eve, a time to spend with friends and family, go to the pub or maybe go to church if that’s your thing. £100 really doesn’t get you much these days, not even a weeks shopping.

Surely it could have been predicted 12 months ago that they would struggle to get volunteers to work on Christmas Eve.

Sure there won’t be many managers showing their faces that day.

 

[43066]

I do know. But its not universal favour though, hence use of ‘some’. This appears to be more of a problem on the NW side of northern than the NE.

Ultimately there will always be some who don’t want to work Sundays, but if they’re brought in as part of a pay deal which is accepted then that’s that. Bringing them in for new joiners with existing staff offered the choice is the best and fairest way of doing it and maximises chance of acceptance. IME it’s mostly ex BR people who’ve never worked a Sunday who would rather keep them outside, and they’re retiring at quite a rapid pace now. Far more will happily bring them in for a pensionable pay rise!

That does seem like a sensible solution, albeit not one that is quick to implement.

You’d be surprised how quickly the rump of staff who don’t work Sundays dwindles, my depot is down to single figures and the change only came in 2017.

If most railway crews are happy with the only open places on Sundays being churches and newsagents. If they want shops, pubs, restaurants and visitor attractions to be open, they need to provide a public transport service to allow workers to get to those places.

It strikes me that many workers wouldn’t dream of working Sundays themselves (or extreme early mornings, late evenings, weekends, public holidays, or night shifts, all of which are regularly worked by railway staff) but happily expect others to do so.

Anyway, disputing whether staff should or shouldn't work Sundays doesn't excuse Northern's approach. If train operators continue down that route, then it may be services get reduced rail staff are left with a choice of redundancies, reduced hours or having to work Sundays to keep the same number of hours. If there's bad relations between the operator and the passengers, the staff will suffer whether it's their fault or not.

Sundays have been brought into the working week at many TOCs. How many times does it need to be pointed out that it is the employers who have resisted doing this universally?

Clearly Northern have failed to manage the situation, and notably the suggestion above is that they were relying on their own managers to cover Sunday shortfalls, and they’ve proven unwilling to do so.

 

[DarloRich]

It seems ok on the north east side - is this another situation where mergers have created areas within the same company having differing terms and conditions?

 

[muz379]

I do know. But its not universal favour though, hence use of ‘some’. This appears to be more of a problem on the NW side of northern than the NE.

Different agreements apply to traincrew at northern depending on which side of the pennines they are on .

For the normal tax rate (which I presume guards are on) around 30% would be deducted for tax and NI. Any additional deductions would either be going into the employee's personal workplace pension, or would be repaying a student loan, although I don't expect many rail workers would be repaying a student loan.

You would be suprised now , a lot of new entrants to the industry have degrees but have decided for a plethora of reasons not to use them in their traditional sense to get jobs related to them .

Allowances like the one on offer in this case wouldn't be pensionable so thered be no extra deduction there .

 

[marsker]

It's not so much a case of creating, more of failing to unify. It goes back to the different conditions for Arriva Trains North and First North Western - almost 20 years.

 

[kw12]

In reality if you want to bring sundays inside the working week you need an uplift of staff numbers by about a third .

How do you calculate the uplift as a third?

I make it more like a sixth. I have calculated it as follows:

Current number of staff (ie number of staff required for 6 day working week)
= (6/4) * Number of staff per working day

Number of staff required for 7 day working week
= (7/4) * Number of staff per working day
= (7/4) * ((4/6) * Current number of staff)
= 7/6 * Current number of staff

Additional number of staff required
= (7/6 * Current number of staff) - Current number of staff
= 1/6 * Current number of staff

Fewer additional staff would be needed if the number of staff required on a Sunday is substantially less than other days. For example, if the Sunday timetable were half that of a weekday timetable the number of staff required for a 7 day working week would be nearer (6.5/4) * Number of staff per working day

 

[stXeve]

Few years ago they'd give train crew a nice juicy bonus for working a Christmas Eve Sunday
Now the DFT don't pay enhanced overtime rates for these sorts if days so any TOC that doesn't have committed Sundays is going to massively struggle.

 

[northwichcat]

Well if you can find away to allow me to drive my train on my PS5 I’ll happily work remotely.

Working remotely for office workers is only possible because many employers have adopted all the available technology options. Some were forced to in 2020, having tried to avoid implementing them before that.

Northern use Sprinter trains from the 1980s. If a guard takes ill part way through a service it's cancelled with the passengers thrown off. They rely on signallers being in remote signal boxes. Many remote Northern stations don't even have CIS. At some stations the only 21st century technology you see is a TVM and a CCTV camera pointed at the TVM. They are not a 21st century business and not operating on 21st century infrastructure.

 

[headpin]

Looks to me that the issue is staff on the West not wanting to work overtime on Christmas Eve. Not sure how they could avoid this really as if people don't want to work overtime there's not a lot you can do!

Competent management arranges crews weeks in advance. If they have not sufficient staff to cover their contractual obligation then hire more. Or as a last resort you know weeks in advance not a day two before.

incompetent management.

 

[northwichcat]

£100 really doesn’t get you much these days, not even a weeks shopping.

If you can't get a week's shopping for £100 you're either buying for a large family or you have expensive taste. You can buy packs of 4 Angus beef burgers or similar for £4.

If you're buying for a large family, then you'd normally have another source of income to contribute - either a partner's salary or Universal Credit.

 

[gazzaa2]

I hope Burnham and the ‘nationalisation is a magic solution brigade’ are tucking in to some humble pie.

Rail operators should have a compensation regime similar to airlines. Even if your ticket only cost £10, if an airline cancels your flight due to reasons within their control (eg staff shortages) they have to feed you and, if necessary, put you in a hotel plus you could get compensation running into hundreds of pounds. For train companies to wash their hands of people that have paid for tickets weeks in advance, offering no alternatives and nothing more than a refund is completely unacceptable.

The problem with nationalisation is it's only as effective as the government that run it (or as willing as they are to invest in it). Which was why the British Rail rotted so badly from Beeching onwards as the motorcar and roads got all the investmens. Tory governments in particular don't like investing in public services.

Privatisation doesn't work because it's driven by profit and not public service (i.e. the state of the utility services). Whereas when a government are chaotic and inefficient then its public services will be (the NHS). The railway is suffering the worst of both worlds.

 

[northwichcat]

Privatisation doesn't work because it's driven by profit and not public service (i.e. the state of the utility services).

It's worse where there's no competition. For example, I can choose my mobile phone provider but I can't choose my utility company. United Utilities seem to be happy to leave all infrastructure alone until it collapses e.g. a section of pipe only gets replaced when it bursts - there's no routine replacement for old pipes.

 

[Moonshot]

If you can't get a week's shopping for £100 you're either buying for a large family or you have expensive taste. You can buy packs of 4 Angus beef burgers or similar for £4.

If you're buying for a large family, then you'd normally have another source of income to contribute - either a partner's salary or Universal Credit.

As has been pointed out by a few others, the last minute offer of 100 is simply being ignored by the guards. Had Northern looked at this issue a bit earlier and offered 200 for Xmas eve, it would have seen a higher uptake. Drivers get north of £420 for working Sundays.....no shortage of them tomorrow. Most will end up spending the shift in the mess room

 

[bramling]

Competent management arranges crews weeks in advance. If they have not sufficient staff to cover their contractual obligation then hire more. Or as a last resort you know weeks in advance not a day two before.

incompetent management.

Whilst clearly this has been extremely poorly planned, from a logistical point of view hiring more staff isn’t straightforward. Firstly it will take many months to come to fruition, and that assumes there’s the resources to train them. Secondly, it doesn’t resolve the question of who pays, especially in the current climate where literally everything has to be underscored by the government.

This would have been enough of a problem in the past, but Covid has amplified everything, or more correctly the government’s response to it has.

 

[Train_manager]

If most railway crews are happy with the only open places on Sundays being churches and newsagents. If they want shops, pubs, restaurants and visitor attractions to be open, they need to provide a public transport service to allow workers to get to those places.

Large retail shops have restricted opening hours on a Sunday. 10am until 1600. Sunday trading Act 1994.

Oh and the same Act of parliament gives shop workers the right to:

Opt out of Sunday working!!!​

A bit off topic sorry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's worse where there's no competition. For example, I can choose my mobile phone provider but I can't choose my utility company. United Utilities seem to be happy to leave all infrastructure alone until it collapses e.g. a section of pipe only gets replaced when it bursts - there's no routine replacement for old pipes.

Witb rail there's competition at the point of tendering, which could have meant Northern had their franchise pulled for this sort of thing. The problem we have now is that there's no sanction that can be applied for this kind of negligence. And yes, I call the failure to establish the problem at least a few weeks in advance negligence. Gross negligence on the part of the senior management, I'd say.

There may not be much they could do to avoid the situation, but they could have established what was going to happen weeks ago so people could plan, including publishing the timetables well in advance.

Large retail shops have restricted opening hours on a Sunday. 10am until 1600. Sunday trading Act 1994.

Oh and the same Act of parliament gives shop workers the right to:

Opt out of Sunday working!!!​

A bit off topic sorry.

One presumes that if crews did this that would exclude them from occasionally working them when they needed more money, though. Thus I doubt many would sign up for this.

 

[gazzaa2]

It's worse where there's no competition. For example, I can choose my mobile phone provider but I can't choose my utility company. United Utilities seem to be happy to leave all infrastructure alone until it collapses e.g. a section of pipe only gets replaced when it bursts - there's no routine replacement for old pipes.

It's the same with the railways. When privatised its not the TOCs that maintain infrastructure or pay for upgrades. HS2 for example, it's the taxpayer that pays for the line to be built, not the TOC that will potentially run it (for profit).

 

[Horizon22]

In an ideal world, the railway shouldn't be run using overtime, but too many issues preventing that from being in place.

Yes but that’s in an ideal world. What would you do in the current situation with the resources available?

I personally agree £100 won’t cut it, especially being offered reasonably late in the day. A little bit of foresight would have helped for passenger comms, but I doubt the outcome would have been very different.

But this argument comes up on every last Sunday before Christmas every year. Also staff morale isn’t exactly great after years of strike and no pay rises, so you can see why uptake is minimal. And Xmas Eve is so much worse than say 21st or 22nd. A perfect storm.

 

[Moonshot]

Witb rail there's competition at the point of tendering, which could have meant Northern had their franchise pulled for this sort of thing. The problem we have now is that there's no sanction that can be applied for this kind of negligence. And yes, I call the failure to establish the problem at least a few weeks in advance negligence. Gross negligence on the part of the senior management, I'd say.

There may not be much they could do to avoid the situation, but they could have established what was going to happen weeks ago so people could plan, including publishing the timetables well in advance.



One presumes that if crews did this that would exclude them from occasionally working them when they needed more money, though. Thus I doubt many would sign up for this.

That agreement does exist for conductors. Some 10% do that

 

[Topological]

It's the same with the railways. When privatised its not the TOCs that maintain infrastructure or pay for upgrades. HS2 for example, it's the taxpayer that pays for the line to be built, not the TOC that will potentially run it (for profit).

Wasn't Railtrack private? Again not to go into that debate, but the original model was not for the government to pick up everything (directly, recognising subsidies for railtrack were from the government)

It is also only water that we do not get a choice of, electricity and gas can be switched.

The lack of trains on Northern is definitely the responsibility of Northern management. I just do not see that the nationalised solution would solve anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't Railtrack private? Again not to go into that debate, but the original model was not for the government to pick up everything (directly, recognising subsidies for railtrack were from the government)

It is also only water that we do not get a choice of, electricity and gas can be switched.

The lack of trains on Northern is definitely the responsibility of Northern management. I just do not see that the nationalised solution would solve anything.

Not least because Northern is nationalised.

 

[northwichcat]

Large retail shops have restricted opening hours on a Sunday. 10am until 1600. Sunday trading Act 1994.

Oh and the same Act of parliament gives shop workers the right to:

Opt out of Sunday working!!!​

A bit off topic sorry.

Actually that's only part of the story.

Convenience stores can open longer. The likes of Co-op and Sainsburys have reduced shop floor space in some central stores so that they can open until late on Sundays. Also they don't have to do 10-4. Some shopping centres open later, so they can remain open later e.g. 10:30-16:30 and the act doesn't prevent stores opening early for 'browsing' with the checkouts opening at 10am on the dot. So it's possible a retail store may want workers to do a full length shift for Sunday.

The opt out was really for those who had a religious reason and the rules are different for retail workers who've signed a new employment contract since the mid-90s (00s for betting shops in Northern Ireland), with 3 months notice required to opt-out in some cases - https://www.gov.uk/sunday-working

 

[gazzaa2]

Not least because Northern is nationalised.

Nationalisation is pretty futile in effectiveness when the government have been at war with the rail industry/unions.

 

[Horizon22]

As has been pointed out by a few others, the last minute offer of 100 is simply being ignored by the guards. Had Northern looked at this issue a bit earlier and offered 200 for Xmas eve, it would have seen a higher uptake. Drivers get north of £420 for working Sundays.....no shortage of them tomorrow. Most will end up spending the shift in the mess room

Which ultimately shows what colossally bad short-termism there is from DfT (who are pulling the purse-strings here) Pay drivers 4x who ultimately won’t be used because the guards won’t be there…

So Northern are still going to be paying more for no actual gain! Whereas they probably could have paid slightly more and run a reduced, yet reliable service

 

[northwichcat]

Also staff morale isn’t exactly great after years of strike and no pay rises, so you can see why uptake is minimal. And Xmas Eve is so much worse than say 21st or 22nd. A perfect storm.

I thought the RMT had agreed a pay deal that takes them through to April 2024. ASLEF haven't but it sounds like their members will be turning up tomorrow, only to find there's no guards to accompany them.

 

[Topological]

Not least because Northern is nationalised.

Yes, though to be fair it is run as a small company rather than being cross-subsidised by more lucrative parts of the railway as it would be under a full BR. I cannot really blame nationalisation for Northern being what it is.

Two things worry me with attitudes at the moment. Firstly, that nationalisation is somehow a solution and secondly, that nationalisation would be better with a New Labour government (which we will presumably get soon).

 

[Horizon22]

I thought the RMT had agreed a pay deal that takes them through to April 2024. ASLEF haven't but it sounds like their members will be turning up tomorrow, only to find there's no guards to accompany them.

They have, but doesn’t mean there’s a high morale or lots of goodwill going.

Yes there’s a bonus rate, but it’s a simple ratio; pay rate vs staff take up. It’s evidently too low (although I still think it wouldn’t reach timetabled levels, some will refuse Sundays regardless), based on take take up which appears to be in single figures at some depots.

Ultimately all solved by Sunday in the working week. But this has been mentioned so many times on these forums, but the DfT want to have their cake and eat it on this matter. Northern have to deal with the realities of the situation, which means things like overtime & rostering are heavily scrutinised now.