northern & EC 180's

[YorkshireBear]

It's been stated northern might be keeping the units they currently have as EC no longer require them. I don't know how much truth is in this.

I'm not from NW and no little of services they operate but do they operate services that are semi fast? Because i can't see anywhere on northern network there being a place where their performance is really needed? Is their not a route somewhere in the country that is much mroe suited to a 180 where they could be swapped for 158,156,170 etc?

And also if Northern also dont want the 180's who is going to take them on? Surely very few units are left unwanted at moment due to current overcrowding.

 

[MCR247]

There is units more suitable to the routes the NT 180s work, but there isn't enough of those units

 

[driver9000]

The Northern 180s will be with the company until at least December 2010. The work they are employed on is stopping services between Blackpool North-Manchester Victoria and Hazel Grove. These services are 'all stops' between Blackpool and Bolton then 'fast' to Salford Crescent. Northern took the 180s to cover capacity when 12 142s went to Great Western (some have since returned) and 158s went to ScotRail and there were no suitable Sprinters or Pacers in store for Northern to use. The 180s were taken because they have huge capacity (284 seats) which is certainly needed in peak periods! The fact that these are 125mph trains had little or nothing to do with it, although part of our training for them included driving at 100mph.

 

[duffman82]

I think the Northern 180's should be deployed on the chat moss route, Liverpool to Manchester Airport gives them chance to stretch there legs

 

[MCR247]

I think the Northern 180's should be deployed on the chat moss route, Liverpool to Manchester Airport gives them chance to stretch there legs

Does that need a 5 car unit? I didn't think so. Especially over the summer it would be wise to use them to Blackpool.

 

[duffman82]

Why waste 125mph units on a stopping service though is my opinion at least with Liverpool LS - Manchester Airport, which has 6 stops compared to the blackpool service which has over 15. If the Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North was a semi fast maybe...

 

[WatcherZero]

Two issues seem to be whats dividing people.

Capacity- they should be used to take advantage of their moderatley large capacity, in Northerns area thats mainly Blackpool other services are shorter and more frequent

Speed- They are fast units, Blackpools got some sprints but turns into a suburban service, L-CM route has fewer stations and is more intercity like, L-Man Air is an express service not stopping at most stations.

I dont really come down on either side of this, only noting that what units were freed up and where their deployed should perhaps warrant equal consideration.

 

[p.d87]

Or get them onto a new semi-fast Nottingham to Glasgow via Sheffield, Leeds, Skipton and Carlisle or that a bit ambitious ?? Im not sure about routeing guides in Leeds area, would this service require a reversal at Leeds? If so to avoid this, it could always go via Doncaster between SHF and LDS and gain a few extra passengers. Think this could be a fantastic service for Northern.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Should they get the extra stock 142's from FGW and 150's from LM) AND keep the 180's if not gain more, all EC fleet, Then an express service somewhere in north should become an option if not a ambition for them, but then again they may not be kept or if kept just used as current with extra units to greater improve capacity.

 

[ainsworth74]

Should they get the extra stock 142's from FGW and 150's from LM)

What are FGW and LM going to get to replace the lost 142's and 150's?

 

[WatcherZero]

I think one of the issues in the North, particularly on Liverpool-Leeds axis is there isnt spare paths for an express service, they would just get stuck behind a commuter train. Other parts of the country with less frequent traffic you could squeeze that kind of a service in but not here.

 

[ukrob]

Or get them onto a new semi-fast Nottingham to Glasgow via Sheffield, Leeds, Skipton and Carlisle or that a bit ambitious ?? Im not sure about routeing guides in Leeds area, would this service require a reversal at Leeds? If so to avoid this, it could always go via Doncaster between SHF and LDS and gain a few extra passengers. Think this could be a fantastic service for Northern.

How about we sort out Northerns chronic over-crowding before introducing new services.

 

[350401]

What are FGW and LM going to get to replace the lost 142's and 150's?

The 7 FGW's 142's will be at Northern from December this year, FGW are gaining 8 London Overground 150's to replace them. LO are getting new-build Class 172's to replace their 150's.

 

[Kneedown]

At the risk of repeating what i've always said, wake up EMT! Get em on the Liverpool - Norwich's!
Most trains are still only 2 car, although they all should be at least 4, and since the 158's were refurbished they are even more unreliable than before. Even the 400hp one's have trouble on the hills over the Hope Valley.
Time for Mr Shoveller to be bold.

 

[jopsuk]

Kneedown- you going to fund the reinforcement of the Norwich-Ely line? If the 222s can't do it (at least, not at any decent speed) then I doubt 180s can either.

What would I do with the 180s? I'd, erm, "persuade" GC to go all-180 and add their HST stock (reformed into 2+8/9s plus spare power cars, unless some carriages can be found) to one of the HST-operating TOCs

 

[Kneedown]

Kneedown- you going to fund the reinforcement of the Norwich-Ely line? If the 222s can't do it (at least, not at any decent speed) then I doubt 180s can either.

222's are cleared for Liverpool right through to Norwich. I think the bit you are referring to is Queen Adelaide to Lakenheath which is 45mph for anything other than Sprinters and 170's? Thats only a few short miles (Unlike Boston to Skegness on an HST which is 30mph with a couple of 5's) and with nearly an hours turnaround at Norwich not an issue at all.

 

[tbtc]

How about we sort out Northerns chronic over-crowding before introducing new services.

Spot on

The 180s may not get near their top speed on the Hazel Grove services, but the five coaches are needed. Then again, a lot of trains in the UK never get to top speed, so I don't see why this is a problem with the 180s

We have far too many crowded routes in the UK that need longer trains before we go wasting long trains on new routes. I'm all for innovation, but why put a five coach train on a speculative route like Nottingham - Glasgow (or London - Lincoln) when people can't get a seat on offpeak services elsewhere.

I'd be tempted to put a ban on starting speculative new services until the crowded routes like the core Transpennine/ Cross Country routes are sorted out - which is why I hope Northern/ FGW use the LM/ LO 150s to strengthen existing routes

 

[northwichcat]

Northern took the 180s to cover capacity when 12 142s went to Great Western (some have since returned) and 158s went to ScotRail and there were no suitable Sprinters or Pacers in store for Northern to use.

Not quite. In Dec 07 you'll recall the Manchester Airport-Windermere service was cut and it left Manchester-Preston with a shortage of capacity. In order to address this DfT decided Northern should provide an extra Manchester-Preston service every hour. In Dec 08 Northern got 5x142s back from FGW and 3x180s to provide both this extra service, an extra Manchester Airport stopper (to allow the TPE services to run express) and the Leeds-Nottingham service. As you can imagine 8 units for all those extra services has led to more heavy use of the units.

The 180s did arrive a few months before the Dec 08 timetable but that was down to crew training, assessing their use etc.

The 180s were taken because they have huge capacity (284 seats) which is certainly needed in peak periods!

They actually have slightly less seats than 2x156s - which were used to run the morning St-Annes-on-Sea to Greenbank service (same sort of arrival time in to Piccadilly as the Blackpool-Hazel Grove 180)

 

[TheWalrus]

What would be the most appropriate route under Northern for 180s?

 

[tbtc]

What would be the most appropriate route under Northern for 180s?

In an ideal world, something main line where the top speed came in handy and passengers on long journeys needed "intercity" seating, like Nottingham - Leeds.

However, given current constraints, the 180s main asset is capacity, not top speed. Since a number of Northern services are Pacers/ Sprinters coupled together for much of the day (where there may be no corridor connection), the 180s might be better used on trips like the Blackpool ones they are running on, even if they never get out of third gear...

 

[swt_passenger]

I just started a new thread in the General section - the ECML 180s are NOT going to be made available to open access operators on the ECML - DfT have them going to other franchises.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35564

 

[driver9000]

However, given current constraints, the 180s main asset is capacity, not top speed. Since a number of Northern services are Pacers/ Sprinters coupled together for much of the day (where there may be no corridor connection), the 180s might be better used on trips like the Blackpool ones they are running on, even if they never get out of third gear...

Or even get INTO third gear, the transmission being 3 stage.

 

[MCR247]

Would it not make sense for TPE and Northern to work together? They both are overcrowded so why not:

Give the what were EC 180s to northern for now. Then Northern maintain them (Longsight?), but they work TPEs services throughout the day. And then, in return, TPE maintain all the 185s as normal but then some run York - Blackpool as they are maintained there(?) and then the released 158s are used to strengthen other services.

The good things about this are:
- Who maintains them does not change
- This means that 180s will get to use their higher speed and higher gearing
- 185s will be able to use their rapid acceleration

 

[driver9000]

The DfT aren't keen on TOCs working together for the benefit of the passenger or common sense. All in the name of 'competition'.

Northerns 180s are allocated and maintained at Newton Heath although they visit Longsight for tyre turning. The 185s are maintained at Ardwick and York but allocated to Ardwick. What you are suggesting would be a logistical nightmare caught up in red tape and would eventually descend in to arguments about who pays for what, who is responsible for what etc. To carry out what you are suggesting you might as well just swap the fleets around.

 

[TheWalrus]

In an ideal world, something main line where the top speed came in handy and passengers on long journeys needed "intercity" seating, like Nottingham - Leeds.

Do they really need a 5-car on Notts-Leeds? To allocate them to the most sensible route, capacity needs to be considered as well as top speed, but I would think in Northern's case - as most of their routes are stoppers - capacity is the highest priority.

 

[tbtc]

Do they really need a 5-car on Notts-Leeds? To allocate them to the most sensible route, capacity needs to be considered as well as top speed, but I would think in Northern's case - as most of their routes are stoppers - capacity is the highest priority.

No; that's my point!

The comfortable seats and high speed would suit something like Nottingham - Leeds (in an ideal world), but given Northern's lack of stock/ paths the 180s are more suited to the kind of work they are doing

(sorry if I didn't explain myself)

 

[northwichcat]

No; that's my point!

The comfortable seats and high speed would suit something like Nottingham - Leeds (in an ideal world), but given Northern's lack of stock/ paths the 180s are more suited to the kind of work they are doing

(sorry if I didn't explain myself)

With Northern it's capacity and consistent west and east fleets over top speed. Northern should have ideally used 3 car 158s to fill in for the 323s when two were out-of-service opposed to retiming services to take longer to allow for pairs of 142 to fill in on Crewe services, which is what they did.

If the 5 car 180s went to Yorkshire now then Northern would need to move a minimum of 5x158s in the other direction and that would be less efficient for crew signing and maintainence.

 

[TheWalrus]

No; that's my point!

The comfortable seats and high speed would suit something like Nottingham - Leeds (in an ideal world), but given Northern's lack of stock/ paths the 180s are more suited to the kind of work they are doing

(sorry if I didn't explain myself)

No you did, I knew what you meant, but I was sort of backing up your point!