Northern issue "DO NOT TRAVEL" warning for 08/09/2024

[Krokodil]

Sundays are time and a quarter with a minimum 6 hours

No wonder they can't get volunteers then. Several years back TfW were offering time and a third, minimum 7.5 hours. Now TfW offer double time and will be bringing Sundays inside.

IIRC, it was the removal of this relaxation that led to a number of long distance bus services being split into smaller chunks.

Which is presumably why several bus routes in North Wales change numbers midway (5->5C, 11->11C, 11->11M).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Have a load of guards withdrawn their offer to work Sunday at short notice (as they might, and are entitled to do, if management have annoyed them), or have Northern had an idea of this for ages and are just incompetent?

I can't help but imagine some managerial heads in a collective bucket of sand, hoping the problem would go away.

It's not exactly a new problem. Around Christmas in particular the problem has been acute for many years. Witness last Christmas where TfW offered a decent bonus for working Sundays 24th and 31st. Northern meanwhile offered nothing until the last minute when management went "oh sh*t" and offered a small sum which was far too short notice for anyone to amend their plans.

 

[skyhigh]

No wonder they can't get volunteers then.

If anything, it'll get worse.

Management are making things worse. They have submitted a bridging offer to the RMT until a full agreement can be made as part of longer term negotiations. The offer is essentially to give up all favourable conditions relating to Sunday working (removing some East conditions but also making Sundays committed for West guards) in return for a £75 booking on bonus.

Unsurprisingly that has not gone down well.

 

[Halwynd]

There has to be a long-term national solution to all this - the general public are utterly fed up with the railway.

I'm just flying a kite, but what if Sunday's were brought inside for all traincrew in return for an independent annual pay review linked to some sort of mechanism relating to inflation, and which would be guaranteed by being written into contracts of employment?

 

[jayah]

There has to be a long-term national solution to all this - the general public are utterly fed up with the railway.

I'm just flying a kite, but what if Sunday's were brought inside for all traincrew in return for an independent annual pay review linked to some sort of mechanism relating to inflation, and which would be guaranteed by being written into contracts of employment?

You could do it via a mandatory restructuring. A real business that is expected to open on Sundays would go bust if it carried on like this. Can't see it happening, and these aren't real businesses.

FOCs and Open Access don't seem to have these problems.

You could hire 'weekend drivers' a bit like they did for the night tube. Given the lack of training capacity that also seems unlikely, but might offer a route out of this, that doesn't start another year of strikes.

You could cut the basic pay so overtime is needed. They are doing the opposite at the moment.

They could raise the overtime pay. It would dampen the effect, but still won't work when base pay is high and rising further, and drivers are on 40% tax. Most people just don't need the extra money.

You could buy them off, with 20% on basic pay and Sundays inside. It would cost a fortune and need a lot more headcount. Politically nigh on impossible.

Or you could reduce the Sunday timetable, but people do actually want to travel.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Does anybody know what the situation is regarding drivers' hours regulation for RRB these days? I'm long out of touch, but when UK North operated a huge amount of RRB work during the Stockport blockade in the summer of 2004, their buses went to get the tacho's calibrated as they had been told they would be required to use them. However, I had driven a pre-planned RRB with First Calderline without tacho use about a decade earlier.

I’d suggest that all RRB work would fall under EU hours unless it’s a long term contract running the same route day after day (similar to a school contract). Certainly all the work we did was treated as EU.

You used to be able to manually record EU workings on the back of a tacho chart for vehicles without a tacho fitted, I’m not sure what the equivalent is now everyone is on digital cards.

Driver availability is. Even if you had drivers who did want to do it, it would cause absolute chaos with scheduling in a regular bus company (not to mention ensuring drivers knew the route etc as well).

Surely bus drivers don’t need to know the route? Or at least, that’s the impression some train drivers on here give when discussing the relative differences between roles

Spending a huge amount on paying for bus drivers to have quadruple time

Wouldn’t solve the problem if the driver was out of hours. PCV drivers can’t choose to work rest days, they are legally mandated, and drivers hours are a bit of a minefield to keep track of with various exemptions and clauses that spring into play just when you think you’ve got your head around it!

 

[Bikeman78]

You can, don't submit WTT schedules for all the trains in the first place. Not rocket science Moonshot

I was thinking the same thing. Be honest about it. Someone is wasting their time writing unit and crew diagrams for trains that will never run.

 

[Goldfish62]

I’d suggest that all RRB work would fall under EU hours unless it’s a long term contract running the same route day after day (similar to a school contract). Certainly all the work we did was treated as EU.

Under 50km it's domestic rules without tachos.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Under 50km it's domestic rules with tachos.

I don’t remember any of ours being domestic, but thinking about it some more, none of ours would have been under 50k either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There has to be a long-term national solution to all this - the general public are utterly fed up with the railway.

I'm just flying a kite, but what if Sunday's were brought inside for all traincrew in return for an independent annual pay review linked to some sort of mechanism relating to inflation, and which would be guaranteed by being written into contracts of employment?

That's an interesting idea. I'd personally happily vote for something like the triple lock.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm just flying a kite, but what if Sunday's were brought inside for all traincrew in return for an independent annual pay review linked to some sort of mechanism relating to inflation, and which would be guaranteed by being written into contracts of employment?

The big flaw with your plan is that in order to cover a seven day without recourse to overtime, you need seven days' worth of staff. That means that Northern need to recruit and train an extra 16% on top of their existing complement. It's a big task and took TfW five years to accomplish.

I don’t remember any of ours being domestic, but thinking about it some more, none of ours would have been under 50k either!

Manchester to Chester would certainly be over. Manchester to Buxton is within the threshold though.

 

[QueensCurve]

The only transparency you will get from Northern is to blame "train crew" which encompasses both drivers and guards. The issue doesn't involve drivers. They are already in at depots on their contracted Sundays, Guards are not. But the theme from Northern is that it's "train crew unavailability".

And that's the narrative the current senior management want to trot out every time as the root cause. What they don't say is that the ball is in their court to get round the table and offer better incentives for guards to come in on their day off. That would stop all.ofnthisnin a heartbeat.

But they won't because it's easier to deflect and blame someone else as the root cause, which going off social media and most mainstream media is working just fine fo

How can you expect to run trains if you don't have crew contracted to do so?

 

[Goldfish62]

I don’t remember any of ours being domestic, but thinking about it some more, none of ours would have been under 50k either!

That would be why then!

 

[Halwynd]

The big flaw with your plan is that in order to cover a seven day without recourse to overtime, you need seven days' worth of staff. That means that Northern need to recruit and train an extra 16% on top of their existing complement. It's a big task and took TfW five years to accomplish.

Understood... if that's what needs to happen so be it. I would imagine - hope - that once the railway moves towards GBR and fragmentation begins to be reduced, that savings will be realised to pay for some or all of this.

The bigger picture has to be the damage being done to the railway week in week out.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Manchester to Chester would certainly be over.

What about Altrincham - Chester, stopping at Northwich only and ticket acceptance on Metrolink from Alty?

 

[jamesst]

What about Altrincham - Chester, stopping at Northwich only and ticket acceptance on Metrolink from Alty?

Is my memory tricking me or did the Sunday chester- Manchester (northern) services only used to go as far as Altrincham?

 

[TUC]

Hardly. You asked one person whether they were happy about you personally using the car. Why on earth should anyone care what one individual chooses to do? Especially as rail passenger numbers continue to grow strongly.

Ironically one genuine similarity with the NHS is the fact railway’s passengers do seem to always return, just as reliably as NHS patients.

I'm saying that will be the natural response of many people.

As for 'our customers will always return' that complacent approach was what was behind so many well known stores going bankrupt in thr past decade.

Look after your customers. They're the only reason your jobs exist

 

[dk1]

I'm saying that will be the natural response of many people.

As for 'our customers will always return' that complacent approach was what was behind so many well known stores going bankrupt in thr past decade.

Look after your customers. They're the only reason your jobs exist

I worked with a senior railway manager who whenever he went on local TV/Radio after we’d done well at something having to say “we are not complacent and will strive to do better still”. He said it used to bug him using that line because on the railway we are complacent, often treat the public with contempt, but they do always return and tend to bring their friends and family along with them too. Nothing in my long career has ever really had a long term affect on ridership.

 

[DelW]

I worked with a senior railway manager who whenever he went on local TV/Radio after we’d done well at something having to say “we are not complacent and will strive to do better still”. He said it used to bug him using that line because on the railway we are complacent, often treat the public with contempt, but they do always return and tend to bring their friends and family along with them too. Nothing in my long career has ever really had a long term affect on ridership.

Yet we're told (at least around London) that the railway's biggest problem is that commuter numbers have nosedived, and that the missing commuters have taken the premium revenue from their season tickets with them. The working from home genie is out of the bottle, and it's possible that work travel numbers will never return to 2019 levels. If weekend leisure travel by train is damaged as well, by the current unreliability and discomfort, we may end up with a significantly downsized railway.

 

[Halwynd]

I worked with a senior railway manager who whenever he went on local TV/Radio after we’d done well at something having to say “we are not complacent and will strive to do better still”. He said it used to bug him using that line because on the railway we are complacent, often treat the public with contempt, but they do always return and tend to bring their friends and family along with them too. Nothing in my long career has ever really had a long term affect on ridership.

Do they return? Or is it the case that the railway is constantly losing and gaining different passengers?

What I am convinced of is that if it was not for the lengthy industrial action that we have seen in recent years (and I am not apportioning blame here) the railway could well be conveying many, many more passengers than it does today, especially on non-InterCity routes. For example, the Wigan - Southport line is a shadow of its former self - you can see the effect on weekdays and especially at weekends, particularly on Sunday's, when many services are just conveying fresh air.

 

[dk1]

Yet we're told (at least around London) that the railway's biggest problem is that commuter numbers have nosedived, and that the missing commuters have taken the premium revenue from their season tickets with them. The working from home genie is out of the bottle, and it's possible that work travel numbers will never return to 2019 levels. If weekend leisure travel by train is damaged as well, by the current unreliability and discomfort, we may end up with a significantly downsized railway.

I’m convinced it’ll all sort itself out. Here in East Anglia we’ve faired much better than much of the UK and have very well loaded commuter services again too. The Elizabeth line has helped us and with Stansted Airport making a spectacular recovery which helps our rail network even more.

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Do they return? Or is it the case that the railway is constantly losing and gaining different passengers?

From what I witness with people I know who use the trains they have a good moan, toys go out of the pram and after a particularly bad experience say they’ll drive in future. Few months later they’ve got over it and are back on the train.

 

[DelW]

I’m convinced it’ll all sort itself out. Here in East Anglia we’ve faired much better than much of the UK and have very well loaded commuter services again too. The Elizabeth line has helped us too with Stansted Airport making a spectacular recovery which helps our rail network even more.

I hope you're right - the timetable on my local line is rubbish by comparison with 2019 (30 minute gaps instead of 15), with apparently no hope of restoration. That's broken some connections at nearby interchanges too. Loss of season ticket revenue is the stated justification.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

From what I witness with people I know who use the trains they have a good moan, toys go out of the pram and after a particularly bad experience say they’ll drive in future. Few months later they’ve got over it and are back on the train.

That happened to mum after the Cambridge - Ipswich line had a period of unreliability

 

[dk1]

That happened to mum after the Cambridge - Ipswich line had a period of unreliability

Must be the best ever service on that route now 7 days a week. Signalling issues Coldham Lane to Chippenham has been the biggest issue on that line for as far back as I can remember followed by disruption caused by freight. Hopefully resignalling will assist the former very soon.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Must be the best ever service on that route now 7 days a week. Signalling issues Coldham Lane to Chippenham has been the biggest issue on that line for as far back as I can remember followed by disruption caused by freight. Hopefully resignalling will assist the former very soon.

For a week a few months ago it was disrupted almost every day due to freight train breakdowns, overrunning engineering works, a tree on the overhead wires and signalling problems at bury. I have seen quite a few signalling issues at Dullingham. Also late running caused by late freight trains happens semi regularly. Very good service recently (except for the massive fire at Ipswich)

 

[Halwynd]

From what I witness with people I know who use the trains they have a good moan, toys go out of the pram and after a particularly bad experience say they’ll drive in future. Few months later they’ve got over it and are back on the train.

That is undoubtably true - I have done it myself and always come back a few weeks later!

But we should be concerned about those occasional passengers who could be converted into regulars, and those who use the railway as a distress purchase. And I imagine there will be many more who read all the media reports of disruption and unreliability and never even consider the railway.

It's sometimes the case that what we don't know is as important as what we do know.

 

[Kite159]

The only solution is to offer the guards a large enough paydeal to change their T&C's to become 7 days with Sundays treated just as another day as part of their working week.

Although that will come at a large cost to the DfT.

The current situation for lack of a reliable Sunday service must be golden for car park operators due to the extra revenue with some passengers deciding against using the train for a weekend getaway.

 

[D9006]

They are not saving a fortune by not operating trains. Clearly, they're not paying guards salaries and fuel. But the drivers are still in work, being paid as normal.

From a quick look online, the average bus driver salary is around £14ph. From memory the Guard rate at Northern is about £20ph. I suspect if you were to offer Guards 200% pay at a guaranteed 12 hours for a Sunday shift you'd find the problem disappeared overnight at a lower cost than paying bus drivers quad time.

Every man has his price - and clearly Guards don't think they're being offered a price they'd accept.

Can assure you no bus or coach company pays quad time, you be extremely lucky to find 1 that pays anything above the normal hourly rate, so hence it’s actually cheaper to run buses than trains, 1 wage as opposed to 2.

so wages for train going be roughly £50 and hour and £14 for a RR. Some pay less than £14, although in Manchester now has reached the giddy heights of £17 an hour

 

[Krokodil]

What about Altrincham - Chester, stopping at Northwich only and ticket acceptance on Metrolink from Alty?

Non-stop it is close (and running non-stop would be pointless, you'd use TfW to Picc and then Metrolink to Altrincham), stopping at the intermediate stations puts it clearly over the 50km limit.

The only solution is to offer the guards a large enough paydeal to change their T&C's to become 7 days with Sundays treated just as another day as part of their working week.

Again, Sundays in the working week can only be done if staffing complements are increased to cover it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Can assure you no bus or coach company pays quad time, you be extremely lucky to find 1 that pays anything above the normal hourly rate, so hence it’s actually cheaper to run buses than trains, 1 wage as opposed to 2.

so wages for train going be roughly £50 and hour and £14 for a RR. Some pay less than £14, although in Manchester now has reached the giddy heights of £17 an hour

Though the train driver will still be paid and the leasing costs of the unit will still be charged.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm just flying a kite, but what if Sunday's were brought inside for all traincrew in return for an independent annual pay review linked to some sort of mechanism relating to inflation, and which would be guaranteed by being written into contracts of employment?

It's been explained a million times why neither the TOCs nor the Government want Sundays inside the working week, despite the Unions and many staff being in favour of it.

And if you weren't aware, the arrangement you suggest was enjoyed by many rail staff before Covid came along anyway. Certainly drivers' pay rises were linked to the RPI and either matched it exactly or had an additional increment on top, every year.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So the much vaunted OLR have been in charge here for four years and they've yet to resolve this issue? Or is it they have a solution but the DfT wont sign off on the additional opex on what is already the most subsidised TOC/passenger carried in England.