Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

[najaB]

What about those travelling beyond Lime Street?

I refer back to the point I made in post #4.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well, any appeal on the basis of unfairness might be considered given the possible PR implications of refusing it, but I think the far better approach would be to appeal the PF on the basis that there is not and cannot be a scheme in operation; after all, we know that Northern's PF signage simply does not comply with the Regulations and thus as far as the Regulations are concerned, no PF scheme exists.

And again we come to Byelaw 18, the ultra vires Byelaw. They really would be silly to try that on, having lost a PF appeal.

 

[Bantamzen]

Logically Northern's notice would say where the TVMs are and that they are card only but if you want you pay by cash you should obtain a permission to travel from it (which probably wouldn't stand up if someone with legal knowledge took a case to court as I'm sure the conditions of travel don't require you to get a slip to prove where you boarded if you want to buy a ticket using cash.)

Since you obviously know it all can you confirm the time the passenger arrived and that the signal at the end of platform 2 wasn't on red preventing the train in the opposite direction (which prevented the passenger from seeing the TVM) from leaving? If not you're posting tabloid style speculation about it being the passenger's fault.

Well I can't speak for every station, but on my local one despite being a single platform one there is a sign at the footbridge that a ticket machine is located down the platform. But I have little doubt that some here would still create about it, perhaps claiming it was two feet out of place, the wrong colour or didn't state the exact distance and GPS coordinates of the said TVM.

Of course there is an answer to all member's concerns on here, but that involves being proactive and actually trying to get jobs within companies like Northern where one can effect change.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well I can't speak for every station, but on my local one despite being a single platform one there is a sign at the footbridge that a ticket machine is located down the platform. But I have little doubt that some here would still create about it, perhaps claiming it was two feet out of place, the wrong colour or didn't state the exact distance and GPS coordinates of the said TVM.

Of course there is an answer to all member's concerns on here, but that involves being proactive and actually trying to get jobs within companies like Northern where one can effect change.

It's about having a sign at all. The only time I have ever seen prominent signage about ticketing facilities is in Scotland.

 

[najaB]

The only time I have ever seen prominent signage about ticketing facilities is in Scotland

I can only assume that your travels have been quite limited. While there are stations that leave a lot to be desired, most that I've visited have more that adequate signage.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's about having a sign at all. The only time I have ever seen prominent signage about ticketing facilities is in Scotland.

Given the volume of people I have to ask to stop smoking in front of the no smoking signs...........I've seen people not board a train and then come and ask in the office after its gone despite the destination blind, carriage window stickers and PIS screen and the old BR "this platform for..signs". The info is there you can lead a horse to water but....

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I can only assume that your travels have been quite limited. While there are stations that leave a lot to be desired, most that I've visited have more that adequate signage.

I certainly wouldn't call the signage other than in Scotland prominent. There should be a national standard, set down in franchise agreements really. Or if nothing else - it can't cost so much that the DfT can't afford to pay to have put up a clear poster at 2500 odd stations!

 

[Bantamzen]

It's about having a sign at all. The only time I have ever seen prominent signage about ticketing facilities is in Scotland.

At the stations I regularly use, which are on the first lines to become PF ones, there are noticeable signs, a rather large and obvious splash screen on the TVMs, and before the scheme went live there was lots of media coverage about it. So quite honestly you'd have to be living in a cave to miss the fact that it is now a requirement to have either a valid ticket or P2P before boarding a train.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

At the stations I regularly use, which are on the first lines to become PF ones, there are noticeable signs, a rather large and obvious splash screen on the TVMs, and before the scheme went live there was lots of media coverage about it. So quite honestly you'd have to be living in a cave to miss the fact that it is now a requirement to have either a valid ticket or P2P before boarding a train.

No, the PF signage is reasonably visible at most (though not all) stations. However the quality of signage indicating the presence or absence of ticketing facilities (where it isn't completely obvious, e.g. having a ticket machine directly next to the only entrance to a station) is only really acceptable in Scotland IMO.

 

[Bantamzen]

No, the PF signage is reasonably visible at most (though not all) stations. However the quality of signage indicating the presence or absence of ticketing facilities (where it isn't completely obvious, e.g. having a ticket machine directly next to the only entrance to a station) is only really acceptable in Scotland IMO.

You mean like (for example) the sign at one end of my local station that indicates the presence of a ticket machine at the other end?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You mean like (for example) the sign at one end of my local station that indicates the presence of a ticket machine at the other end?

It's not a national standard. There has to be a national standard in the same way there de facto is across Scotland. Whilst your station may be good enough, and others may be too, all stations need to be clear. Having clear such signage in place should be a prerequisite to charging any "standard" (undiscounted Anytime) fare or Penalty Fare, or initiating a prosecution for ticketless travel (whether Byelaw or RoRA).

This way no reasonable person could say they didn't know there were ticketing facilities, or where they were.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's not a national standard. There has to be a national standard in the same way there de facto is across Scotland. Whilst your station may be good enough, and others may be too, all stations need to be clear. Having clear such signage in place should be a prerequisite to charging any "standard" (undiscounted Anytime) fare or Penalty Fare, or initiating a prosecution for ticketless travel (whether Byelaw or RoRA).

This way no reasonable person could say they didn't know there were ticketing facilities, or where they were.

Most reasonable people aware of the requirements of obtaining a valid ticket or P2P know to look for for some ticket selling facility. And by a happy coincide the TVMs are generally large and obvious devices, and where they may not be visible signs are in place to indicate where they might be. Quite why there has to be a regulated standard for something that should be fairly obvious is beyond me.

I strongly suspect that no amount of signage would ever be enough for some, the need to whinge about anything related to Britain's TOCs being so strong. In this particular case people are trying to to defend someone who ignored a sign telling them to use the ticket machine, because they couldn't be bothered to give themselves time to actually buy the ticket in the first place. Quite bizarre in my opinion.

 

[pemma]

Most reasonable people aware of the requirements of obtaining a valid ticket or P2P know to look for for some ticket selling facility.

Northern are the TOC I use most frequently, if it wasn't for posting on here I'd be unaware they operate a PF system on certain lines. From the pictures I've seen posted on here the PF notices could be on a wall or gate leading to the platform, so a group of people standing in the wrong place or someone in front of you holding open the gate for you could be enough for you not to see it.

And by a happy coincide the TVMs are generally large and obvious devices

You do realise the machines don't actually say they are ticket machines anywhere except on the home screen of the display. If you'd never seen one before and it was on a different platform (from where you can't read the text on the screen) you might think it's an advertising display or train running display that's not doing anything useful. In contrast the old ones had a sign at the top showing the National Rail logo and saying that they were ticket machines.

because they couldn't be bothered to give themselves time to actually buy the ticket in the first place.

As already pointed out that's what you've presumed it's not a fact.

 

[Bantamzen]

Northern are the TOC I use most frequently, if it wasn't for posting on here I'd be unaware they operate a PF system on certain lines. From the pictures I've seen posted on here the PF notices could be on a wall or gate leading to the platform, so a group of people standing in the wrong place or someone in front of you holding open the gate for you could be enough for you not to see it.



You do realise the machines don't actually say they are ticket machines anywhere except on the home screen of the display. If you'd never seen one before and it was on a different platform (from where you can't read the text on the screen) you might think it's an advertising display or train running display that's not doing anything useful. In contrast the old ones had a sign at the top showing the National Rail logo and saying that they were ticket machines.



As already pointed out that's what you've presumed it's not a fact.

Well I can safely say that when PFs were announced for the Aire & Wharfe lines there was plenty of publicity about it in Local media, and on social media. Most people seemed to cope with it without the constant fuss that is a routine on here now.

As for the passenger in question, they arrived at the station, saw the ticket office as closed and read the sign before deciding that they didn't have enough time to use the TVM. So given these things, how would they have made time to use ticket office? Putting two and two together it is not hard to conclude that they arrived at the station too late to buy a ticket and board the train. If so that's tough I'm afraid.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well I can safely say that when PFs were announced for the Aire & Wharfe lines there was plenty of publicity about it in Local media, and on social media. Most people seemed to cope with it without the constant fuss that is a routine on here now.

As for the passenger in question, they arrived at the station, saw the ticket office as closed and read the sign before deciding that they didn't have enough time to use the TVM. So given these things, how would they have made time to use ticket office? Putting two and two together it is not hard to conclude that they arrived at the station too late to buy a ticket and board the train. If so that's tough I'm afraid.

Not necessarily. Northern's TVMs are far from fast if you are unfamiliar with them. It could easily take two or three minutes per passenger to buy their ticket at a TVM. At a ticket office this could happen much quicker - I would say a typical time for a purchase where the buyer knows where they are going is maybe 30-40 seconds at most!

Northern are the ones putting all the demands on the passenger here. So it is not unreasonable to expect that they make it reasonably practicable to actually comply with their demands. Equally, spending 5 or 10 minutes to get a ticket (because of queues, or having to find the TVM) for a journey of a similar length is simply disproportionate.

 

[pemma]

Well I can safely say that when PFs were announced for the Aire & Wharfe lines there was plenty of publicity about it in Local media, and on social media. Most people seemed to cope with it without the constant fuss that is a routine on here now.

You're missing the point I'm making. I'm saying as a regular Northern passenger (on a non-PF) route I'm only aware of PF routes because of posts on here, if I wasn't signed up on here and one day used a PF route I wouldn't know about it being a PF route or expect it to be a PF route. It's common sense to expect a consistent approach between lines.

As for the passenger in question, they arrived at the station, saw the ticket office as closed and read the sign before deciding that they didn't have enough time to use the TVM. So given these things, how would they have made time to use ticket office? Putting two and two together it is not hard to conclude that they arrived at the station too late to buy a ticket and board the train. If so that's tough I'm afraid.

Like I asked you already. How do you know the passenger didn't wait in the ticket office for a while? You can't even presume he saw the sign as soon as he arrived. And how do you know the train in the opposite direction (which he said prevented him seeing the TVM until the last minute) wasn't stopped at the red signal at the end of the platform for a few minutes? And how do you know that when the train in the other direction departed there wasn't a long queue of passengers waiting to use the TVM? For all you know the passenger might have arrived at the ticket office at least 5 minutes before his train was due to depart.

 

[Starmill]

Nearly all ticket machines say on them "Tickets available here" or similar... except for Northern's!

 

[Bantamzen]

Not necessarily. Northern's TVMs are far from fast if you are unfamiliar with them. It could easily take two or three minutes per passenger to buy their ticket at a TVM. At a ticket office this could happen much quicker - I would say a typical time for a purchase where the buyer knows where they are going is maybe 30-40 seconds at most!

Northern are the ones putting all the demands on the passenger here. So it is not unreasonable to expect that they make it reasonably practicable to actually comply with their demands. Equally, spending 5 or 10 minutes to get a ticket (because of queues, or having to find the TVM) for a journey of a similar length is simply disproportionate.

The same could be said of ticket office purchases, I've often seen simple transactions take several minutes if the customer has any queries, trouble with cards etc.

You're missing the point I'm making. I'm saying as a regular Northern passenger (on a non-PF) route I'm only aware of PF routes because of posts on here, if I wasn't signed up on here and one day used a PF route I wouldn't know about it being a PF route or expect it to be a PF route. It's common sense to expect a consistent approach between lines.



Like I asked you already. How do you know the passenger didn't wait in the ticket office for a while? You can't even presume he saw the sign as soon as he arrived. And how do you know the train in the opposite direction (which he said prevented him seeing the TVM until the last minute) wasn't stopped at the red signal at the end of the platform for a few minutes? And how do you know that when the train in the other direction departed there wasn't a long queue of passengers waiting to use the TVM?

And you among others are assuming this in the hope of it being the case, so that you can bemoan Northern. So we could be equally correct or incorrect.

 

[pemma]

And you among others are assuming this in the hope of it being the case, so that you can bemoan Northern. So we could be equally correct or incorrect.

Your first contribution to the thread was to state it was automatically the passenger's fault (no ifs, no buts) and people want to blame Northern just because they are Northern. I'm simply suggesting alternative scenarios and making it quite clear that they may or may not be the case. You're trying to tell us what the passenger did based on a conclusion you've drawn from a few words of the article and dismissive of any suggestion that you could be wrong.

You're also very dismissive of constructive criticism of Northern because you feel everything at your station is OK. The incident referred to was not at a West Yorkshire station, different management and a different PTE are responsible for your station than the ones responsible for Wavertree Technology Park so signage and how policies are interpreted could be very different to what you're use to.

If I was on the penalty fares appeal team and received the quote from article as the evidence I'd suggest further information is required before a decision can be made. It's obvious you would reject the appeal.

 

[clagmonster]

As for the passenger in question, they arrived at the station, saw the ticket office as closed and read the sign before deciding that they didn't have enough time to use the TVM. So given these things, how would they have made time to use ticket office? Putting two and two together it is not hard to conclude that they arrived at the station too late to buy a ticket and board the train. If so that's tough I'm afraid.

As I recall from previous visits, at Wavertree Technology Park, the booking office is on the fairly high footbridge between the two platforms, with an exit at at least one end of the bridge. If the passenger rocks up at the booking office, it is a probably a 30 second transaction plus any queuing time. If they are then diverted to the TVM on the opposite platform to their train, it probably then adds another 5 minutes walking time, plus time to actually operate the TVM which if they are unfamiliar will be slower than using the booking office. So yes, I can easily see in this case that the passenger could have allowed time to use the booking office but not the TVM.

I also can't see why the notice at the booking office couldn't have stated where the TVM can be found.

 

[Bantamzen]

Your first contribution to the thread was to state it was automatically the passenger's fault (no ifs, no buts) and people want to blame Northern just because they are Northern. I'm simply suggesting alternative scenarios and making it quite clear that they may or may not be the case. You're trying to tell us what the passenger did based on a conclusion you've drawn from a few words of the article and dismissive of any suggestion that you could be wrong.

You're also very dismissive of constructive criticism of Northern because you feel everything at your station is OK. The incident referred to was not at a West Yorkshire station, different management and a different PTE are responsible for your station than the ones responsible for Wavertree Technology Park so signage and how policies are interpreted could be very different to what you're use to.

If I was on the penalty fares appeal team and received the quote from article as the evidence I'd suggest further information is required before a decision can be made. It's obvious you would reject the appeal.

All very interesting but deflects from the issue. A person made the decision not to attempt to buy a ticket from the TVM when there was instruction to do so. The story says when he arrived at the station he was met by the closed booth and the sign. So unless he has some additional information as to why he could not buy a ticket before boarding, then yes if I were making the decision I'd reject it. Arriving at a station and not giving yourself time to buy a ticket is not an excuse.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. As a user of Northern's various franchises I have watched so many people deliberately evading fares as the cost of mine has risen. Short of installing barriers and manning every station, Northern had to do more to deter these people. Indeed its in their franchise agreement. And from what I have seen they have at least alerted local media when a line goes FP, as well as installing signage posters etc. So people need to quickly come to terms with the concept of getting a ticket before getting on a train, and if they don't then they risk a penalty fare. Its either that or hike up the prices for the rest of us to make up for the lost revenue.

I know this opinion will be hotly contested here, but the reality is that the rail network is a private enterprise and those companies running it expect to make a profit. If they don't, and we are seeing this in reality, then they will either up their prices or pull out altogether, a reality that some people on this board need to get to grips with. I don't agree with this model, I believe strongly that the network should be run primarily as a public service and be controlled as such. But in the absence of this it is not fair on the vast majority if the fare paying public to constantly defend people either deliberately or unwittingly not following the rules and terms that TOCs set.

 

[pemma]

All very interesting but deflects from the issue. A person made the decision not to attempt to buy a ticket from the TVM when there was instruction to do so. The story says when he arrived at the station he was met by the closed booth and the sign. So unless he has some additional information as to why he could not buy a ticket before boarding, then yes if I were making the decision I'd reject it. Arriving at a station and not giving yourself time to buy a ticket is not an excuse.

That is not the excuse he gave. The excuse he gave was he didn't know there was a TVM there and only noticed it after a train had pulled out by which time he didn't think he had time to go and get a ticket before boarding. The fact the TVM is on the opposite platform goes against Northern's usual pattern for the location of a TVM, it would normally be on the platform for trains going towards the nearest large town/city, not on the platform for trains going away from it.

 

[Clip]

Nearly all ticket machines say on them "Tickets available here" or similar... except for Northern's!

Strange you say that as the ones ive used have big buttons on them that say 'Buy tickets' and 'Tickets for collection' Or similar on them and they are white against the purple screen so im unsure how anyone could not know - given the size of the machines - that they do not sell tickets!

 

[Bantamzen]

That is not the excuse he gave. The excuse he gave was he didn't know there was a TVM there and only noticed it after a train had pulled out by which time he didn't think he had time to go and get a ticket before boarding. The fact the TVM is on the opposite platform goes against Northern's usual pattern for the location of a TVM, it would normally be on the platform for trains going towards the nearest large town/city, not on the platform for trains going away from it.

But he still boarded the train without a ticket, and knowing that there was a TVM at the station. He made the decision to board rather than buy a ticket. I'm sure the "didn't have time mate" excuse has been used ad naseaum by many a fare dodger, so unless he can offer Northern some additional information as to why it was not practical to obtain a ticket I would expect them to turn the appeal down. Otherwise it'll rapidly become a free for all whilst the rest of us pay for it.

 

[pemma]

But he still boarded the train without a ticket, and knowing that there was a TVM at the station. He made the decision to board rather than buy a ticket. I'm sure the "didn't have time mate" excuse has been used ad naseaum by many a fare dodger, so unless he can offer Northern some additional information as to why it was not practical to obtain a ticket I would expect them to turn the appeal down. Otherwise it'll rapidly become a free for all whilst the rest of us pay for it.

So are you implying that if he claimed he hadn't have looked across to the other platform it would have been OK to let him off but because he did and admitted he saw the TVM at the last minute he has to pay the £20 penalty?

Leaving Lime Street without a ticket has been impossible from certain platforms for a number of years, so you don't know that not missing his train to buy from the TVM meant he wasn't envisaging paying before the barrier at Lime Street.

 

[Bantamzen]

So are you implying that if he claimed he hadn't have looked across to the other platform it would have been OK to let him off but because he did and admitted he saw the TVM at the last minute he has to pay the £20 penalty?

Leaving Lime Street without a ticket has been impossible from certain platforms for a number of years, so you don't know that not missing his train to buy from the TVM meant he wasn't envisaging paying before the barrier at Lime Street.

Nope, if he was unsure where the machine was he could have asked a fellow passenger. This is what most people would do, its truly amazing what you can gleam by asking a fellow human. Now if everyone shrugged their shoulders and there was no signage, then maybe you accept the appeal.

 

[pemma]

Nope, if he was unsure where the machine was he could have asked a fellow passenger. This is what most people would do, its truly amazing what you can gleam by asking a fellow human. Now if everyone shrugged their shoulders and there was no signage, then maybe you accept the appeal.

Yet when I overheard someone asking another passenger at East Didsbury if there was a ticket office the response they were given is "You can buy on the train as long as you don't want a railcard discounted ticket."

 

[Bantamzen]

Yet when I overheard someone asking another passenger at East Didsbury if there was a ticket office the response they were given is "You can buy on the train as long as you don't want a railcard discounted ticket."

And you can, so long as you have a Promise To Pay. However two passengers talking to each other does not constitute confirmation of policy.

 

[pemma]

And you can, so long as you have a Promise To Pay. However two passengers talking to each other does not constitute confirmation of policy.

There was an open ticket office at the time, it's just not in the most obvious location.

Anyway the point is the information from another passenger may be incorrect. Surely if you were told there is no TVM at the station by another passenger you're less likely to look for one, than if you were the only passenger there and didn't know if the station had one or not.

 

[Bantamzen]

There was an open ticket office at the time, it's just not in the most obvious location.

Anyway the point is the information from another passenger may be incorrect. Surely if you were told there is no TVM at the station by another passenger you're less likely to look for one, than if you were the only passenger there and didn't know if the station had one or not.

The chances are that if there are a few around at least one will know where it is. Just as an aside, are there any signs at the station in question?