Northern 'names and shames' schools with high numbers of fare dodging pupils

[gc4946]

You’d certainly get ‘sad face’ stories then, as the pupils would end up missing the train, as they’d no doubt have to queue up at the revenue block, and probably only arrive a few minutes before the train arrives.

The Penistone Line is only once an hour by the way

I used to travel on this line about 20 years ago, and it was happening then. Some conductors would start checking tickets from the front to catch them out, but even then they’d only do a handful of tickets before we’d be approaching Berry Brow and they’d have to walk back down to the back to do the doors

Northern should know which services have large numbers of pupils travelling, so they should assign an extra senior conductor (or even more) specifically to sell and check tickets while the other senior conductor does the doors - as well as - other staff conducting periodic revenue blocks

 

[skyhigh]

Northern should know which services have large numbers of pupils travelling, so they should assign an extra senior conductor (or even more) specifically to sell and check tickets while the other senior conductor does the doors - as well as - other staff conducting periodic revenue blocks

There is no such grade as 'Senior Conductor'. If they felt more support was required they would put Penalty Fare teams on the problem trains.

 

[jon0844]

They must never be looking for it, cos she's been doing it 5 days a week for the last 2 years.

In the previous 3 years that she was commuting to Manchester, she was purchasing tickets from stations much further down the line than she'd actually boarded, again without ever being caught.

Besides the revenue loss & dishonesty of it all, this must surely skew passenger figures? (e.g. actual paying passengers are on overcrowded trains that on paper are not overcrowded).

She must be very happy to be getting away with it, and for so long, but at some point in the future she's going to be caught - and the time of purchase will be checked. Suddenly, it will become a serious matter and if the journey history is checked then further questions may follow - leading to a prosecution and potential criminal record that could impact on future career choices.

There are more sting operations being carried out now that will further help detect short ticketing or people who buy a ticket when they see staff or a closed gate. I expect a lot of people who think they've found the perfect trick are going to have some nasty surprises in the next week/month/year.

 

[jfollows]

Wilmslow High School has a catchment area (https://maps.cheshireeast.gov.uk/CE/webmapping/?&e=383987.40&n=379342.85&layers=AU_V_SecondaryCatchments_POLY_CURRENT.AU_S_Schools_POINT_CURRENT&gotofield=School&gotovalue=Wilmslow High School&gotolayer=AU_V_SecondaryCatchments_POLY_CURRENT&s=50000.00&bm=OSM_GREY) which includes Alderley Edge down to Monks Heath and Handforth, so my expectation is that there are many schoolchildren who travel one stop by train to Wilmslow in both directions.
In my earlier experience, Northern always provided staff to check tickets primarily from arriving passengers on weekday mornings. Maybe they don't do this as often as they used to? As has been said, it's easy to realise their presence because of the queue before the station exit and only buy a ticket on a phone there and then.
There's no way the tickets could be checked on the train between Handforth and Wilmslow or between Alderley Edge and Wilmslow, not without delaying the train anyway.
So barriers at Wilmslow then?
Of course when I travelled to/from school in 1970 (Poynton-Cheadle Hulme) my season ticket would be checked on arrival at both ends of the journey, but since then the railway has got rid of station staff and barriers, but now it's putting barriers back again, but they still need staff to operate them if they're used.
It's not good that people can easily get away without paying and I know a lot of Wilmslow High School children use the train because it's a bit of a problem getting through the human tide at the station if I'm unfortunate enough to arrive to catch a train when they arrive!

 

[WesternLancer]

Saw this article on BBC earlier about Northern naming particular schools as having the worst offenders for fare dodging:

"Northern rail 'names and shames' schools over fare-dodging pupils
A train operator has "named and shamed" several schools for allegedly having large numbers of fare-dodging pupils.

Northern published a "top five" list, saying fare evasion mainly involved students travelling between rural and suburban stations without barriers."

Northern rail 'names and shames' schools over fare-dodging pupils - BBC News

Northern releases a list of five schools which it says has an issue with fare-evading students.

www.bbc.co.uk

Struck a chord with me, as my 20-something daughter's budget is predicated on her only paying for her daily rail commute c.20% of the time (not at all with my blessing) "why would I purchase a season ticket when I only pay once a week".

She does this by having an e-ticket purchase pending, but never actually clicking 'pay' unless she sees a ticket inspector, which more often than not she doesn't.

My niece who regularly visits her boyfriend via train brags about using the same tactic to hardly ever pay.

In both cases, and as in the BBC article the stations are barrier-less.

It seems bizarre to me that Northern leave such an obvious loophole open to be exploited.

Is there no check on the actual time of the ticket purchase vs the commencement of the journey?

Seems odd to me that Northern allow such an obvious loophole.

Your honesty demonstrates how prevalent this sort of thing is (worth quoting it to some of the ppl who come for help when they get caught and don't realise what they are doing via such methods can quickly unravel....) - I suspect e-ticketing has facilitated more of this than 'old fashioned' got to get ticket before get on evasion did.

But I have work colleagues who do the same and openly say so in office conversations - some I know to be on salaries well above £40k.

 

[Vespa]

How regular and how much do you think it would cost to do this at all stations near Honley?

Never said same place every day.

It can be done at different stations at random any one time to keep fare dodgers on their toes, exactly like the New York model they randomly flood underground stations along with the police to reduce crime and fare dodging.

The cost ? Shouldn't be no more than the normal wage bill after all they would be using staff not agency workers.

 

[yorkie]

Never said same place every day.

I never said you did; I was asking you!

It can be done at different stations at random any one time to keep fare dodgers on their toes, exactly like the New York model they randomly flood underground stations along with the police to reduce crime and fare dodging.

They already do this.

The cost ? Shouldn't be no more than the normal wage bill after all they would be using staff not agency workers.

Ok so you are talking about redeploying staff from other locations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

Your honesty demonstrates how prevalent this sort of thing is (worth quoting it to some of the ppl who come for help when they get caught and don't realise what they are doing via such methods can quickly unravel....) -

If you would like to reply to someone asking for help, please check this out first: Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

I suspect e-ticketing has facilitated more of this than 'old fashioned' got to get ticket before get on evasion did.

I'm not sure what you mean, but e-tickets make it much easier to detect when people are on the fiddle.

 

[jon0844]

But I have work colleagues who do the same and openly say so in office conversations - some I know to be on salaries well above £40k.

Hence why some people are being asked to pay back FIVE figure sums to settle and help them keep their job, as well as keeping things out of the press (which in the past, we may recall a solicitor found that it made the press anyway, and they still lost their job/career).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They already do this.

On the Penistone line? I've never seen a revenue block at any of the intermediate stations in West Yorkshire, and I use the line regularly.

 

[jfollows]

I'm not sure what you mean, but e-tickets make it much easier to detect when people are on the fiddle.

In this case, you could presumably check the time of purchase of e-tickets, and have barriers reject them if they were bought less then five minutes previously, for example, perhaps they already so? Would it be feasible for two people manually checking tickets of arriving passengers be able to do the same with a crowd of 50-100 people? In theory, but how difficult in practice?

 

[yorkie]

As mentioned in previous threads, realistically people can be prosecuted for fare evasion from age 18.

If the relevant schools have a sixth form, then that would mean some of the older ones could be prosecuted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

On the Penistone line? I've never seen a revenue block at any of the intermediate stations in West Yorkshire, and I use the line regularly.

I meant Northern do this generally; I don't know if they include this line.

 

[northwichcat]

Believe the Mid Cheshire Rail Users Association are of the opinion that usage on a fair few trains between Chester and Manchester Piccadilly via Knutsford is often significantly under-recorded, for these very reasons.

The cheap scholars season ticket combined with Northern sending 6 RPIs to a single platform at Knutsford and Greenbank, reduced a lot of the school children travelling ticketless. It's one reason why Greenbank overtook Northwich in station usage figures.

I think Lostock Gralam is still without a ticket machine and I have heard people (of all ages) tell RPIs they got on at Lostock. Of course a guard would know who got on at a small station like Lostock if he or she sold them a ticket but the RPIs only know the start or end point of a passenger's journey.

The day the penalty fares came in to force on the Mid Cheshire line it wasn't the Knutsford Academy pupils who were getting their details taken but the Barclays workers from India. Given they are only over here for training before returning to India, I don't think Northern would have got very far if they had tried to prosecute them for non payment. I do wonder whether Northern told Barclays that their foreign workers need to be reminded of a requirement to buy before boarding where possible when working in the UK?

 

[Vespa]

I never said you did; I was asking you!



Ok so you are talking about redeploying staff from other locations.

Precisely

 

[Mat17]

There is no such grade as 'Senior Conductor'. If they felt more support was required they would put Penalty Fare teams on the problem trains.

I agree, but even that wouldn't make any difference. I have had the unfortunate experience of catching this train every now and again - as the kids know they should sit at the very front to avoid the conductor, I know to sit at the very back to avoid the kids.

A bog standard class 150. 100 or so pupils boarding at either Lockwood or Berry Brow, mostly in the front carriage. A grand total of about 5 or 6 minutes maximum from Lockwood through to Honley, with the conductor having to be at the back to do the doors. No chance that any conductor, no matter how keen, is going to get anywhere near the front carriage. If they were to walk from the back to start at the very front, by the time they reach the front of the train it'd be time to start walking back to get to release the doors again.

In five or six minutes, how many of the kids details could a revenue protection team actually get?

 

[nr758123]

I don't get it personally because parents would be vastly more likely to see and actually read communications in school newsletters or on school media than they would directly from Northern or via a local paper.

For Honley, the local paper is the Huddersfield Daily Examiner, which has been turned into mindless celebrity clickbait and rarely reports on local news any more. It's owned by Retch plc. On the other hand, they might make an exception for this because they can sensationalise it and generate lots of comments about how terrible the youth of today are.

Does it prove anything other than that a lot of Honley High School students travel by train, which is hardly surprising given that unlike all the other secondary schools on this side of town it's next to a railway station?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In five or six minutes, how many of the kids details could a revenue protection team actually get?

What about revenue blocks at the stations where they start or end?

 

[Mat17]

What about revenue blocks at the stations where they start or end?

That would be the only way to do it.

 

[etr221]

Northern's ticket machines are card only. They used to have cash & card ones at staffed stations but they were replaced with card only ones.

While Scholar's season tickets have been mentioned and these are cheaper than on-the-day tickets, it's worth remembering that:
1. It requires the ticket to be purchased at the start of the term or academic year. For some parents paying the first term's fares in advance might not be possible, especially if they've just had to purchase a new uniform.
2. Some pupils will only use the train occasionally e.g. when staying with a friend or on days when they partake in after school activities.

How many of the kids will have cards, and so be able to use the ticket machines?

Wondering what proportion of kids (or should I say their parents) are able to afford - or think it appropriate - to buy a termly season?

Which brings me back to my question: how do Northern - realistically - expect the system to work? While it's fine to say 'buy a ticket' - and I think everyone would expect fares to be paid - it has to be possible. And I'm not sure that anybody has actually said how - for these flows - it can actually be done, given the constraints.

More generally, I think the first step to reducing (if not eliminating) 'fare dodging' is to ensure that EVERYONE can buy a ticket - that WILL be valid for their jouney - at a reasonable and fair price; and that they will probably (and so EXPECT to) have it checked.

A question (does anybody have an idea of the answer): what are the relative proportion of passengers who have bought the right ticket (and have had checked so the the railway knows); who have bought the right ticket (but the railway doesn't know because it never checked); who didn't buy a ticket (and were never checked, so got away with it); didn't buy a ticket (but paid when challenged); didn't, but were PF'd; bought the wrong (i.e. non valid) ticket (and no one noticed); and who bought the wrong ticket, and someone did notice. And for the last two, what proportion reasonably believed their ticket was valid?

 

[yorkie]

How many of the kids will have cards, and so be able to use the ticket machines?

Depends on what sort of background they come from, but I did a quick survey of 12-13 year olds and found it was about 50% , sample size was only about 30 so not the most scientific, but gives a rough idea.

That said if it was useful for them to have, more would probably get them.

Wondering what proportion of kids (or should I say their parents) are able to afford - or think it appropriate - to buy a termly season?

It would be cheaper than day tickets but there really should be a sensibly discounted ticket for this purpose.

Which brings me back to my question: how do Northern - realistically - expect the system to work? While it's fine to say 'buy a ticket' - and I think everyone would expect fares to be paid - it has to be possible. And I'm not sure that anybody has actually said how - for these flows - it can actually be done, given the constraints.

I don't think Northern think along those lines.

More generally, I think the first step to reducing (if not eliminating) 'fare dodging' is to ensure that EVERYONE can buy a ticket - that WILL be valid for their jouney - at a reasonable and fair price; and that they will probably (and so EXPECT to) have it checked.

Probably best discussed in the speculative section as to how to achieve that.

 

[Dai Corner]

How many of the kids will have cards, and so be able to use the ticket machines?

Wondering what proportion of kids (or should I say their parents) are able to afford - or think it appropriate - to buy a termly season?

Which brings me back to my question: how do Northern - realistically - expect the system to work? While it's fine to say 'buy a ticket' - and I think everyone would expect fares to be paid - it has to be possible. And I'm not sure that anybody has actually said how - for these flows - it can actually be done, given the constraints.

If i had such a child but not the cash flow to buy season tickets I'd buy e-tickets and print them out or forward them to their mobile phone.

Edit: A weekly child season Lockwood-Honley is £5.00, by the way.

 

[skyhigh]

Wondering what proportion of kids (or should I say their parents) are able to afford - or think it appropriate - to buy a termly season?

Edit: A weekly child season Lockwood-Honley is £5.00, by the way.

There is a scheme where for participating schools (and there is a long list of those!) pupils can get an annual season ticket with a 50% discount from the child price, or a term ticket with a 40% discount from the child price.

For example - a Child Anytime Day return from Brockholes to Honley is £2.80. An annual season ticket under the scheme is £80, which works out at 41p per return journey assuming you're travelling every school day - but the ticket is valid for unlimited travel all day every day.

With discounts such as these on offer it's surprising pupils who travel frequently haven't taken it up.

 

[yorkie]

There is a scheme where for participating schools (and there is a long list of those!) pupils can get an annual season ticket with a 50% discount from the child price, or a term ticket with a 40% discount from the child price.

For example - a Child Anytime Day return from Brockholes to Honley is £2.80. An annual season ticket under the scheme is £80, which works out at 41p per return journey assuming you're travelling every school day - but the ticket is valid for unlimited travel all day every day.

With discounts such as these on offer it's surprising pupils who travel frequently haven't taken it up.

Yes that is a good offer.

It may well be that parents are giving kids the cash but it's being spent on other things; I was speaking with a parent who that happened to only two weeks ago (not over train fares but an after school activity)

 

[HullRailMan]

Tory rubbish I'm afraid. Children are our future; not just an indulgence for feckless parents as the Daily Mail probably thinks. We rightly don't charge parents the cost of their children's education (if they want to buy privilege by sending them to elite not-so-public schools that is another issue outwith the scope of this thread); why should they have to pay for them to travel to whichever school the authorities deem reasonable? For example, in the Borough of Knowsley (in the whole borough!!!) there is currently no A-level provision. Why should students and their families be further penalised by having to pay to travel to suitable courses.

It’s hardly unreasonable to expect would-be parents to consider the financial implications of having children before they take the plunge, not to mention the fact that the state gives generous amounts of cash out to support the cost of parenting. Yes, travelling to school is a cost but it’s a cost that is supported through child benefit. No excuse for not having a season ticket if you know your offspring uses the train everyday to get to school.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes that is a good offer.

It may well be that parents are giving kids the cash but it's being spent on other things; I was speaking with a parent who that happened to only two weeks ago (not over train fares but an after school activity)

Do schools still accept cash?

One of my last projects before retiring six years ago was implementing a system allowing patents to pay online for school dinners, trips, after school activities and so on. The aim was to have a cashless school and parents who couldn't/wouldn't pay online had to use a Paypoint or similar in local shops to pay cash.

 

[Wtloild]

No excuse for not having a season ticket if you know your offspring uses the train everyday to get to school.

The rate at which school days are cancelled over the last couple of years must surely have reduced the value of season tickets.

I know plenty of adults who used to have season tickets but don't any more due to partial home-working making them unviable.

 

[Starmill]

Honley has one exit, so surely the answer would be to send half a dozen ticket checkers there regularly on random days? If the kids don't have the money to buy the ticket, take their details (yes, some will give false ones but a lot won't). End result will be a load of kids being late for school. Keep this up and the school and parents will in many cases soon show more interest in making sure the kids have tickets!

You can attempt to illicit a name and address from a child but good luck verifying them, or trying to claim for an unpaid fare. It's overwhelmingly unlikely that these could be recovered, and all for what? You could write them letters directly yes but it would have have been far better to do this via the school in the first place.

 

[Haywain]

The rate at which school days are cancelled over the last couple of years must surely have reduced the value of season tickets.

I know plenty of adults who used to have season tickets but don't any more due to partial home-working making them unviable.

At the prices stated in post #61 that is not a valid argument.

 

[Starmill]

A regular revenue block BEFORE boarding would cut down on ticketless rides, no need to take names and addresses, no ticket no boarding, parents/guardians etc will have to drive to pick them up.

They would be forced to buy tickets before they can cross the block into the platform.

This would be much more effective. You can probably legitimately prevent a child from boarding if they say they've no ticket and no money. However depending on what else they may say it's not necessarily a wise course.

 

[yorkie]

Do schools still accept cash?

I doubt they would refuse to accept cash.

One of my last projects before retiring six years ago was implementing a system allowing patents to pay online for school dinners, trips, after school activities and so on. The aim was to have a cashless school and parents who couldn't/wouldn't pay online had to use a Paypoint or similar in local shops to pay cash.

Yes parents can generally pay for everything online but a small number of parents prefer to pay with cash.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

The rate at which school days are cancelled over the last couple of years must surely have reduced the value of season tickets.

With the exception of the periods from late March 2020 until the end of that school year, and the first few weeks of the Spring term in 2021, I don't think there have been any school days cancelled, at the vast majority of schools.

 

[Deafdoggie]

My children's schools don't accept cash. Pupils aren't allowed to being cash into school.
In theory, all the pupils need to do is get a "promise to pay" from the ticket machine each morning.