Northern only tickets on TPE when train is cancelled

[far]

I had 2 return tickets today from York to Leeds (Northern only Off-Peak return) and 2 more for Leeds to Newton-le-Willows (also Northern only, Anytime Short Return). We got on the 17:23 from York to Blackpool North to connect with the 18:42 Northern at Leeds going to Newton-le-Willows. After 20 minutes on the 17:23 we were told it was cancelled due to no crew being available. A member of staff who boarded the train (Northern uniform) told us we could get the next train to Leeds, whatever company it was. The next one was the 17:49 TPE. The gripper said that we had invalid tickets and, despite protesting, I was told I had to pay for a new fare as everyone else who had Northern only tickets had already done. I paid to avoid a penalty fare but who do I complain to? £23 is a lot of money when the tickets surely should have been allowed. If we had waited for the next Northern service, we would have missed the connection at Leeds.

 

[lfc84]

The other way round recently...

Recently I had TPE advance tickets which were permitted for use on Northern when the TPE was cancelled. I didn't get it endorsed at the ticket office. I just asked the guard on the both first and connecting Northern services.

Sounds like I met someone who was being customer friendly.

Both now run by the government aren't they ?

 

[far]

Exactly, we are funding this nonsense. However, Northern have always been friendlier and more accepting. TPE on the other hand are a law unto themselves....

 

[Watershed]

Having been given permission by a member of Northern staff, the member of TPE staff was wrong to charge you anything extra. Sadly I can't say I'm surprised by nonsense like this - it's endemic in the industry because TOCs don't have adequate policies to deal with ticket acceptance during disruption.

I would complain to TPE, explaining what you've told us here, and ask for a refund of the new fare you were wrongly charged. Enclose a picture of both your original Northern ticket as well as the new one you were forced to buy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Happens all the time with TPE. I’ve intervened to stop it before. As for practical advice, what @Watershed said

 

[RHolmes]

There wasn’t official ticket acceptance in place for the above service.

It would be Northern I’d be complaining to as the member of staff shouldn’t have told you to board the next available service if travelling on an advance or Northern only when there was no official permission to do so.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It would be Northern I’d be complaining to as the member of staff shouldn’t have told you to board the next available service if travelling on an advance or Northern only when there was no official permission to do so.

There was official permission to do so- the Northern staff member gave official permission.

Whether they should have given that permission is not the passenger’s concern. I’d say they should have done as the passenger would otherwise be delayed by more than one hour. However I’m aware that is still controversial.

I’ll bet the TPE inspector didn’t even bother to check that the Northern train had been cancelled.

 

[RHolmes]

There was official permission to do so- the Northern staff member gave official permission.

Whether they should have given that permission is not the passenger’s concern.

The northern staff member incorrectly and without checking told passengers to board any services. They should not have done this and I imagine (as per the OP’s post) have resulted in several passengers being issued with penalties or new tickets because they specifically didn’t bother to:

A - check acceptance
B - authorise acceptance
C - endorse tickets rather than verbally tell people

In this case it is the passengers concern as they’ve been told to purchase a brand new ticket at cost to themselves.

Therefore I would be complaining to Northern and claiming back through them the additional costs incurred

I’d say they should have done as the passenger would otherwise be delayed by more than one hour. However I’m aware that is still controversial.

I’ll bet the TPE inspector didn’t even bother to check that the Northern train had been cancelled.

There isn’t a definitive right to do that unless it would leave the passenger stranded such as the last service.

It wouldn’t matter as there wasn’t acceptance. 1K35 and 1K39 are the only services with ticket acceptance in place for northern passengers.

 

[Watershed]

The northern staff member incorrectly and without checking told passengers to board any services. They should not have done this and I imagine (as per the OP’s post) have resulted in several passengers being issued with penalties or new tickets because they specifically didn’t bother to:

A - check acceptance
B - authorise acceptance
C - endorse tickets rather than verbally tell people

I agree that they caused passengers unnecessary problems by issuing ticket acceptance without endorsing tickets. The correct course of action from a common sense perspective would therefore have been B or C. Nevertheless, passengers are entitled to rely on verbal permission.

In this case it is the passengers concern as they’ve been told to purchase a brand new ticket at cost to themselves.

Therefore I would be complaining to Northern and claiming back through them the additional costs incurred

It's the passenger's concern that a TPE member of staff wrongly charged them. The circumstances under which that situation arose isn't really their concern.

TPE's member of staff had no right to charge customers in this situation legally, and they certainly weren't doing the industry any favours in any event.

There isn’t a definitive right to do that unless it would leave the passenger stranded such as the last service.

TPE aren't proactively obliged to accept tickets, no. But once ticket acceptance has been communicated - in whichever format - they are obliged to carry passengers without charging them extra.

It wouldn’t matter as there wasn’t acceptance. 1K35 and 1K39 are the only services with ticket acceptance in place for northern passengers.

Common sense has to be exercised even if there is no notification of ticket acceptance through the formal channels. If several passengers are all telling you the same story, it's highly likely they are telling the truth. Even if they weren't, charging people for a new ticket in this situation is exactly the kind of nonsense that gives the industry its deservedly poor reputation.

 

[far]

Common sense has to be exercised even if there is no notification of ticket acceptance through the formal channels. If several passengers are all telling you the same story, it's highly likely they are telling the truth. Even if they weren't, charging people for a new ticket in this situation is exactly the kind of nonsense that gives the industry its deservedly poor reputation.

Exactly right. In my carriage, at least 7 other people were charged extra, which must be a great money spinner. How many of them will complain about it though? Thanks @Watershed I'll be submitting the complaint online tonight. I am still awaiting a response to a previous complaint I sent to TPE too. This whole experience, after similar recent experiences with TPE is putting me off train travel but, unfortunately, I have no viable option for this journey.

 

[Hadders]

The northern staff member incorrectly and without checking told passengers to board any services.

That is not the passengers problem.

Therefore I would be complaining to Northern and claiming back through them the additional costs incurred

I disagree. TPE charged the customer the additional fare, they should refund it. If TPE are agrieved by the actions of the Northern member of staff then TPE need to take it up with Northern.

 

[pedr]

I think technically there’s an argument that being told by an agent of one company that you can travel on another company’s trains doesn’t remove the liability to pay the fare due if the agent was wrong.

It means that (in an ideal world) you shouldn’t be charged a penalty fare and the train company would have to show evidence to disprove the testimony that permission was given. It means that (again in theory) a bylaw charge should fail, if the passenger can adduce evidence to show that permission was given. But I’m not sure that a RoRA charge should fail - the passenger is not paying “his fare” - nor that civil liability wouldn’t be established, at least not without complex arguments about agency.

Of course what should happen is that train companies should be generous and flexible in accepting tickets in times of disruption, and even more so when there’s a reasonable likelihood of reciprocity being beneficial to both parties over the course of a few weeks!

 

[Watershed]

I think technically there’s an argument that being told by an agent of one company that you can travel on another company’s trains doesn’t remove the liability to pay the fare due if the agent was wrong.

It means that (in an ideal world) you shouldn’t be charged a penalty fare and the train company would have to show evidence to disprove the testimony that permission was given. It means that (again in theory) a bylaw charge should fail, if the passenger can adduce evidence to show that permission was given. But I’m not sure that a RoRA charge should fail - the passenger is not paying “his fare” - nor that civil liability wouldn’t be established, at least not without complex arguments about agency.

Of course what should happen is that train companies should be generous and flexible in accepting tickets in times of disruption, and even more so when there’s a reasonable likelihood of reciprocity being beneficial to both parties over the course of a few weeks!

I would have thought the matter of apparent authority resolves that quite nicely. Not to mention the fact you do already have a contract with TPE as they are one of the Train Companies under the NRCoT, and for example condition 28.2 requires any Train Company to assist a stranded passenger.

 

[RHolmes]

I disagree. TPE charged the customer the additional fare, they should refund it. If TPE are agrieved by the actions of the Northern member of staff then TPE need to take it up with Northern.

They didn’t charge an additional fare, they charged the fare owed as no valid ticket was held.

Surely the onus is completely on Northern here who caused the cancellation and also incorrectly informed passengers of ticket acceptance that didn’t exist? I completely can’t think of another example where through the failings of one company, another is forced to accept their customers/passengers without financial compensation

I would have thought the matter of apparent authority resolves that quite nicely. Not to mention the fact you do already have a contract with TPE as they are one of the Train Companies under the NRCoT, and for example condition 28.2 requires any Train Company to assist a stranded passenger.

The passengers weren’t stranded.
28.2 wouldn’t apply.

 

[LowLevel]

They didn’t charge an additional fare, they charged the fare owed as no valid ticket was held.

Surely the onus is completely on Northern here who caused the cancellation and also incorrectly informed passengers of ticket acceptance that didn’t exist? I completely can’t think of another example where through the failings of one company, another is forced to accept their customers/passengers without financial compensation


The passengers weren’t stranded.
28.2 wouldn’t apply.

It's all nonsense. For one, the money goes to the same place. Different companies barely holds water any more.

I get sick of hearing TPE grippers booming away about tickets pre departure when I've spent the last several years spending most shifts sorting out their unending rubbish excuse for running a train service whilst collecting their stranded passengers and staff. Do what the rest of us do and forget about it when a train is cancelled, especially at short notice and if you really fear getting pulled up over passing Northern tickets, just don't scan the ticket.

The easy answer to generate some brownie points amongst the public and try and keep them coming back despite the ongoing mess is to make an announcement apologising on behalf of the other TOC for the cancellation, advise TOC Only passengers that their tickets are not usually valid on this train but on this occasion you will pass them for travel in light of the disruption, welcome them on board and tell them who you are and offer assistance in sorting their connections if they need it.

I've never been anything other than commended for doing the above regardless of formal ticket acceptance being in place or not.

Yes, the staff member is in the wrong for not going about things the right way - but it takes a truly bizarre mindset given the last few years that we've had to criticise them for being sick of things like purely theoretical boundaries between TOCs when there are train cancellations.

I don't even think twice when TPE and Northern's customers get on my train when their own has been cancelled because I'm in the business of getting people from A to B.

When things are running normally and people are just chancing it - fair enough, but when things are going wrong hitting someone with a train cancellation followed a hefty extra charge for trying to rescue their plans will just cause them to say "sod this for a game of soldiers".

 

[Watershed]

They didn’t charge an additional fare, they charged the fare owed as no valid ticket was held.

No fare was owed, as passengers were told that they could travel on that service; having been given that permission, their tickets became valid to use on TPE.

The fact that permission may not have been arranged according to the internal procedures the industry likes to use is neither here nor there; the doctrine of apparent authority means that passengers are entitled to rely on what the Northern member of staff said. They are under no obligation to second-guess it.

It is unacceptable, though hardly surprising given the low priority that customer service has in the rail industry, that frontline staff have not been correctly trained in this basic matter of law. Even in the absence of such training there is no excuse for not applying common sense.

Surely the onus is completely on Northern here who caused the cancellation and also incorrectly informed passengers of ticket acceptance that didn’t exist?

Northern certainly could have done things better by arranging ticket acceptance formally. But having failed to do so formally, the member of staff did the right thing in giving passengers permission to use TPE. They should have gone further in making that permission written to avoid any disputes down the line, but again, that is a matter for TPE to take up with Northern, not with the passengers who are the innocent victims in this urination contest.

I completely can’t think of another example where through the failings of one company, another is forced to accept their customers/passengers without financial compensation

Given that TPE and Northern are both owned and controlled by the government, this is hardly a strong moral argument.

In any event, comparisons with other industries rarely work well. The fact is that the rail industry is one industry which shares revenues, costs, facilities and so forth - something which there are few parallels for in other industries. I am sure Northern have accepted disrupted TPE passengers without compensation on countless occasions too.

The passengers weren’t stranded.
28.2 wouldn’t apply.

I have not suggested that 28.2 applies in this situation. The point is that when you buy a train ticket you are entering into a contract with all of the Train Companies, even the ones that your ticket does not (under normal circumstances) entitle you to use - otherwise 28.2 would not be binding on the other Train Companies. Therefore, arguments about a lack of authority between different Train Companies simply don't hold water. One Train Company is entitled to bind another.

 

[sheff1]

Exactly right. In my carriage, at least 7 other people were charged extra, which must be a great money spinner.

If I was asked to pay an extra fare which was not due because I had already been given permission to travel I would certainly not pay and would call on others in the same position to join me.

They didn’t charge an additional fare, they charged the fare owed as no valid ticket was held.

As has already been explained, no fare was owed. Permission was given to travel using the ticket already held.

NRCoT specifically states "neither a Train Company’s staff, nor a Licensed Retailer’s staff has the authority to waive or change the Conditions unless they are specifically allowed to do so within the Conditions". If TPE's employee is unhappy with permission being given they need to take it up with their management who, in turn, should take it up with Northern if they feel that is appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's all nonsense. For one, the money goes to the same place. Different companies barely holds water any more.

I get sick of hearing TPE grippers booming away about tickets pre departure when I've spent the last several years spending most shifts sorting out their unending rubbish excuse for running a train service whilst collecting their stranded passengers and staff. Do what the rest of us do and forget about it when a train is cancelled, especially at short notice and if you really fear getting pulled up over passing Northern tickets, just don't scan the ticket.

TPE has long had an ingrained institutional arrogance and looking-down at Northern - "we're InterCity don't you know", er, no, you're not, you're a jumped up regional express operation that mostly operates poshed-up regional DMUs with a few fancy pointy nosed bi-modes and some EMUs that ride so badly they might as well be a Pacer if they even bother operating. This even goes back to when they were just running 3-car 185s around the place full and standing the whole time. It was typified by the rude, clipped autoannouncer that used to be on the 185s, and while it's been toned down a little since those days it's still bubbling there under the surface, and this is just an example of it.

 

[far]

The passengers weren’t stranded.
28.2 wouldn’t apply.

TPE don't even apply 28.2 correctly. The same gripper - who seems to have a particular attitude problem - stopped us boarding the 20:30 LDS to NLW a few weeks ago. We were booked on the 19:43 LDS to NLW Northern (cancelled) and he said it wasn't the last service to NLW so could only offer us "discounted tickets". On boarding the 20:43 to MCV, the guard was furious and said that if we got delayed we'd miss the only connection - a TPE - to NLW. I've been on numerous services where Northern staff have left TPE only ticket holders board without any issues. Therefore, I put it to you, this is a cultural problem at TPE and one which we are all funding. I have complained about this incident and, surprise, am yet to hear anything back.

 

[gray1404]

Be sure to submit a complaint about the most recent incident too. If you have still not heard back from TPE after 40 days on each complaint take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.