Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[gc1982]

The (now ancient) original plan was for the 144s to go first, as they're a smaller fleet.

However, if the rumoured short-term transfer of Pacers to TfW were to happen, they'd prefer to receive 142s, as they don't operate any 144s.

They have 143's though? Aren't they basically the same as a 144?

 

[krus_aragon]

They have 143's though? Aren't they basically the same as a 144?

Similar, but drivers and guards would still need some form of conversion course for them. I don't think that'd be required if it were 142s that rolled up.

 

[Eric]

How many pacers do Northern currently own?

 

[deltic08]

Similar, but drivers and guards would still need some form of conversion course for them. I don't think that'd be required if it were 142s that rolled up.

144s are two coach and 143s are three coach or the other way around otherwise are identical and should not need crew conversion.

 

[AMD]

144s are two coach and 143s are three coach or the other way around otherwise are identical and should not need crew conversion.

143s are all two car, 144s are a mix of 2 and 3 car.
And yes, traincrew would need a conversion course to sign a different class of unit - to convert from a 150/1 to a 150/2 (or visa versa) you need to do a 3 hour conversion course due to a number of technical differences.

 

[deltic08]

143s are all two car, 144s are a mix of 2 and 3 car.
And yes, traincrew would need a conversion course to sign a different class of unit - to convert from a 150/1 to a 150/2 (or visa versa) you need to do a 3 hour conversion course due to a number of technical differences.

But they were all built in the same batch and the drivers cabs are identical unlike the 150s. Are you telling me that 195/0 and 195/1s will need separate courses?

 

[AMD]

not quite - 143s and 144s do have technical differences.
The 195 situation is slightly different as they are all built to the same spec, to the extent that 195 to 331 will be a conversion course for conductors.

 

[978wta]

Also, I’m led to believe the 143 and 144 are on different chassis to each other therefore components will be located differently.

 

[YorksDMU]

The 143’s are on Hunslet-Barclay chassis and the 144’s are on BREL chassis, the same as class 142.

 

[anamyd]

How many pacers do Northern currently own?

Northern don't own any Pacers, but they do lease 79 of the 142s, all 13 2-car 144s and all 10 3-car 144s from the ROSCOs.

(the remaining 15 142s and 11 of the 143s are leased from the ROSCOs by TfW, 4 of TfW's 143s are owned by South Wales local councils, and the remaining 8 143s are with GWR; they own some of them and lease the rest from their ROSCO.) 2 141s (one with network-spec mechanicals), the 140 and a single-car Railbus are in heritage land.

 

[danielnez1]

In 2013, Angel decided that they were not going to upgrade the 142s to PRM requirements and withdraw them in 2019. RAIL EXPRESS magazine issue June 2013 carried an article about it.

Yes, a rebody would probably have been required or at least something like a 'National Greenway' revamp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Lancs_Greenway). From what I have read, the Alexander bodies on 143s and 144s are in a lot better condition.

Thanks for the link. I recall from some BR journal papers that a rebody of all pacer classes was a possibility to extend them beyond their (then anticipated )10-15 year lifespan. Though I wonder if the post Winsford mods would have made that more difficult.

That aside, I'm certain that if they had been 20m or 23m long Angel may have had a very different outlook on them.

 

[ed1971]

Thanks for the link. I recall from some BR journal papers that a rebody of all pacer classes was a possibility to extend them beyond their (then anticipated )10-15 year lifespan. Though I wonder if the post Winsford mods would have made that more difficult.

That aside, I'm certain that if they had been 20m or 23m long Angel may have had a very different outlook on them.

I think that if they had been 20m or 23m they would have had to have bogies and you would have probably ended up with something like a Class 155 but wider. These also used certain Leyland National bus parts in their bodywork.

One thing that puzzles me with the PRM issue is that the gangways on Class 185s look too narrow for wheelchair users and I doubt that the toilet cubicles are big enough for wheelchairs anyway, yet these are staying in service post 2019.
I still think that multiple units are best built to the full rail width of around 2.83m, as it allows wide gangways even if 2+3 seating is fitted.

 

[Cardiff123]

It'll be interesting to see if the Pacers that Northern are releasing between now and December are sent to TfW, as TfW are still desperate for any additional DMU's they can get their hands on.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think that if they had been 20m or 23m they would have had to have bogies and you would have probably ended up with something like a Class 155 but wider. These also used certain Leyland National bus parts in their bodywork.

One thing that puzzles me with the PRM issue is that the gangways on Class 185s look too narrow for wheelchair users and I doubt that the toilet cubicles are big enough for wheelchairs anyway, yet these are staying in service post 2019.
I still think that multiple units are best built to the full rail width of around 2.83m, as it allows wide gangways even if 2+3 seating is fitted.

The post-2020 rules don't require all areas of a train to be accessible: just the ability to carry wheelchair users in a dedicated space, and an accessible toilet if toilets are provided at all. On 185s wheelchair users will be in the "ballroom" which is adjacent to the big washroom and a set of doors, so a passenger in a wheelchair won't need to move down through first class or beyond.

As an aside, a Pacer with 23m vehicles wouldn't be much wider than a 155 if at all, they can only get away with being as wide as they are because the vehicles are so short.

 

[Matt_pool]

I hadn't seen any Pacers on the Liverpool -Warrington - Manchester route for a couple of weeks, but over the past couple of days I've seen 2 or 3.

I think they dig them up from somewhere and stick them on just to cheese off their customers and to keep us on our toes!

But you'd think with the introduction of the 195's, even if it is limited to the Liverpool - Manchester Airport route - you would see less Pacers.

Obviously not!

 

[Chris217]

Must admit,Pacers in Lime Street have gotten slimmer for sightings.
Usually seen on the Oxford Rd services
but increasingly been 156s lately.
Sometimes only a single one at that!

 

[anamyd]

It'll be interesting to see if the Pacers that Northern are releasing between now and December are sent to TfW, as TfW are still desperate for any additional DMU's they can get their hands on.

next month I thought...?

 

[Killingworth]

I'd thought the Hope Valley line was all but free of Pacers last May, but they returned. After May this year we seemed to be doing better, especially on busy Saturdays. Too good to be true. Pacers back this Saturday and during the week.

Well done to the guard on the 12.14 from Sheffield on Saturday for gently persuading everyone to move up, move along, and squeeze in. All done with excellent good humour so all were happy. Many won't have paid because they'd picked up promise to pay tickets which she hadn't a prayer of exchanging for a paid for ticket. The train had been late into Sheffield due to heavy loading from Manchester and started back late, getting ever later up to Edale after which it lost no more.

Why so full? Passengers wanting the Hope Valley for walking, a pub crawl, to visit friends, but also a large number from Sheffield to Manchester. How come on a train that is scheduled to stop all stations and take 77 minutes when the 12.11 TPE service takes only 51 and the 12.40 East Midlands 57 minutes?

Single on that TPE costs £12.30 for next Saturday. Northern is £6.00 - and East Midlands is £21.60. On Saturday the 3 coach TPE 185 service went through well filled and East Midlands 4 coach 158 went through with lots of space. I wonder why?

What a way to run a railway. If Northern ran big enough trains they might have room to collect all the revenue and not delay other trains. If East Midlands didn't price so high they'd pick up more and congestion would be eased. But a double Pacer would have been worth providing, rear unit not unlocked until Piccadilly so guard could tackle the local users alighting at unmanned stations!

 

[northernchris]

It's an interesting one, as Northern (or any operator) shouldn't be selling cheap tickets on services which already load well. However, if trains are so full revenue can't be collected, perhaps these appear to be lightly loaded which increases the quota of advances

 

[superkev]

With Dec 31st getting ever nearer and despite all those 150s 153s 158s from various operators Northern still seem to be short of units.
I wonder if the 58 new 195s even if there all in service be enough to allow the Pacers (79 142s and 23 144s) to be withdrawn.
I dont think you can count the new 331 emus as with some electrification "Graylinged" they will prob have a surplus of emus.
K

 

[Jamesrob637]

I'd thought the Hope Valley line was all but free of Pacers last May, but they returned. After May this year we seemed to be doing better, especially on busy Saturdays. Too good to be true. Pacers back this Saturday and during the week.

Well done to the guard on the 12.14 from Sheffield on Saturday for gently persuading everyone to move up, move along, and squeeze in. All done with excellent good humour so all were happy. Many won't have paid because they'd picked up promise to pay tickets which she hadn't a prayer of exchanging for a paid for ticket. The train had been late into Sheffield due to heavy loading from Manchester and started back late, getting ever later up to Edale after which it lost no more.

Why so full? Passengers wanting the Hope Valley for walking, a pub crawl, to visit friends, but also a large number from Sheffield to Manchester. How come on a train that is scheduled to stop all stations and take 77 minutes when the 12.11 TPE service takes only 51 and the 12.40 East Midlands 57 minutes?

Single on that TPE costs £12.30 for next Saturday. Northern is £6.00 - and East Midlands is £21.60. On Saturday the 3 coach TPE 185 service went through well filled and East Midlands 4 coach 158 went through with lots of space. I wonder why?

What a way to run a railway. If Northern ran big enough trains they might have room to collect all the revenue and not delay other trains. If East Midlands didn't price so high they'd pick up more and congestion would be eased. But a double Pacer would have been worth providing, rear unit not unlocked until Piccadilly so guard could tackle the local users alighting at unmanned stations!
View attachment 65751 View attachment 65752 View attachment 65753 View attachment 65754

Wow. Was that usual or was it a short-form? If the latter, excusable. If the former, it needs looking into.

 

[Killingworth]

Wow. Was that usual or was it a short-form? If the latter, excusable. If the former, it needs looking into.

That's fairly normal on a Saturday morning with the 9.14, 10.14, 11.14 and 12.14 Sheffield departures. Even when a 150 or 156 is turned out it is sometimes impossible to get a bike aboard at Dore. Passengers can be left behind. One opted to wait for the next train an hour later on Saturday as he didn't fancy such a claustrophobic ride.. Platform lengthening is needed at Hathersage, Grindleford and Hope to allow longer trains to operate (due by December, but not necessarily any trains to run), and the normal terminal bay Platform 2C at Sheffield only takes 2 carriages .

 

[M60lad]

One question I have to ask is why during the week are some Hope Valley services formed of 2 units coupled together yet the same services on a Saturday are single units? Surely considering how busy the trains get Hope Valley services should always be 2 units coupled together

 

[talltim]

Northern: Rolling Stock:Written question - HL16845
Q
Asked by Lord Scriven
Asked on: 01 July 2019
Department for Transport
Northern: Rolling Stock
HL16845
To ask Her Majesty's Government why it will not be possible to complete the removal of Pacer trains from the Northern rail network by 31 December.

A
Answered by: Baroness Vere of Norbiton
Answered on: 12 July 2019

Northern Rail is planning to remove the first pacer in August, and is working to remove all of the pacers by the end of the year. Due to delays in manufacturing of new trains, a small number of pacers may continue on the network into the beginning of the new year to ensure a stable service for passengers.



Our absolute priority is ensuring passengers in the north benefit from new trains, more services and increased capacity as quickly as possible. People across the north are starting to see new trains across the network, alongside the extra 2000 services a week already delivered.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...ts/written-question/Lords/2019-07-01/HL16845/

 

[simon7929]

Be interesting to see where they store the Pacers. A driver told me recently they are doing preparation work at Heaton for this. However they won't be able to accommodate all of them.

 

[Bertie the bus]

They won't be stored. They might be for a couple of weeks after withdrawal from service but not long term. There is no possible future use for them so they'll quickly head to the scrapyard just as the 314s and 315s have, and withdrawal is being phased rather than a big bang so when some go for scrap the next batch will probably take their place, and so on.

 

[86247]

I wonder how many northern are intending to keep it says a small number but that could be 20 or maybe more had a pair of 142s last week they were absolutely knackered

 

[Chester1]

I wonder how many northern are intending to keep it says a small number but that could be 20 or maybe more had a pair of 142s last week they were absolutely knackered

Pacers would be covering for late 769s which are owned by Porterbrook, as are the 144s (23 units). I think that would be the maximum number kept. The 195 roll out was planned to finish in 2020, they need something like 7 x 195s on the 1st of each month to catch up by 01/01/2020. The 142s are owned by Angel Trains and won't be needed. The impression I have gained from the press releases and intial batch of 195w is not that pacers will stay but that 195 and 769 roll out will be very tight therefore some may (or may not) stay a bit longer.

 

[86247]

the 2 769s at Doncaster should they be in service by now then, their is loads of 2 car 195s yet to be delivered the 3 car ones only have 7 to be delivered should northern order more or go for more 331s

 

[jonesy3001]

Which pacer do you think will go first, i'm guessing 142001 has that will be going into preservation at the NRM in york.