Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

Andy Pacer

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Moderator note: For updates regarding status of Pacer withdrawals, please see:
Pacer Withdrawls: The list (Reference)

I gather inroads will be made into the Pacer fleet from September(?) - i'm sure I read somewhere that 144's will be first. Does anyone have any further or up to date information (or lead me to an existing thread if there is one). Thanks
 
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aformeruser

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From the franchise agreement

Class 142 release profile
10 vehicles released 10.11.2018
38 vehicles released 08.12.2018
18 vehicles released 05.1.2019
20 vehicles released 02.2.2019
16 vehicles released 02.3.2019
2 vehicles released 31.3.2019
10 vehicles released 27.4.2019
4 vehicles released 25.5.2019
12 vehicles released 22.6.2019
8 vehicles released 20.7.2019
8 vehicles released 17.8.2019
8 vehicles released 14.9.2019
4 vehicles released 12.10.2019
(Total vehicles released: 158)

Class 144 (2-car) release profile
10 vehicles released 15.9.2018
4 vehicles released 13.10.2018
8 vehicles released 10.11.2018
4 vehicles released 5.1.2019
(Total vehicles released: 26)

Class 144 (3-car) release
The intention of the Franchisee (subject to paragraph (b)) is that these units will be released on 31 March 2019.
However, all release dates come with the footnote of

The Franchisee shall not return any rolling stock unit to the lessor or sub lease or hire it or otherwise take steps that render it unable to be used in the delivery of the Passenger Services until after any rolling stock unit that can be reasonably regarded as replacing it has been introduced into unrestricted use delivering the Passenger Services.
So unless all 8 of the 769s enter service I don't think any Pacers will be released until 195s start to enter service and even if the 769s enter service my guess is 3 x Pacers which should have been released will remain until the WMT 150s arrive. That also ignores any delays to Northern's refurbishment schedule.
 

Cardiff123

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From the franchise agreement
However, all release dates come with the footnote of

So unless all 8 of the 769s enter service I don't think any Pacers will be released until 195s start to enter service and even if the 769s enter service my guess is 3 x Pacers which should have been released will remain until the WMT 150s arrive. That also ignores any delays to Northern's refurbishment schedule.
Keolis Amey & TfW should put their names down to get hold of these Pacers as soon as Northern release them. Wales is desperate for any DMUs it can get now that Sprinters have started to go away for 2020 mods and no trains are in traffic to replace them.
 

aformeruser

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Keolis Amey & TfW should put their names down to get hold of these Pacers as soon as Northern release them. Wales is desperate for any DMUs it can get now that Sprinters have started to go away for 2020 mods and no trains are in traffic to replace them.
Northern are in the same situation currently, additional services which should have happened last year still haven't been introduced due to DMU shortages, while some existing services are so full they are leaving passengers waiting on the platform. I think it's a good think TfW didn't plan to take on released Northern Pacers as an interim measure as they almost certainly won't be released as scheduled. I also imagine the worst ones will be released first - Cardiff passengers will be shocked at the state of those given how heavily the ATW Pacers have been refurbished.
 

Jonfun

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I can't help but think it's daft that some of Northern's trains are running around filled to bursting and yet we're seriously looking at withdrawing rolling stock which, whilst undeniably tired, is perfectly serviceable.
 

158756

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I can't help but think it's daft that some of Northern's trains are running around filled to bursting and yet we're seriously looking at withdrawing rolling stock which, whilst undeniably tired, is perfectly serviceable.
Aside from the politics - the press and MPs would prefer shorter trains to Pacers, any additional trains would require more subsidy, at a time when passenger numbers and revenue are flat or falling and the business case for Northern's new build trains was dubious to begin with.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Was there not a "concept" refurbishment of one of the fleet ? , in which case one assumes that would (in a rational world) , be one of the last to go ...
 

ainsworth74

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Was there not a "concept" refurbishment of one of the fleet ? , in which case one assumes that would (in a rational world) , be one of the last to go ...
There was! A 2-car 144 was refurbished with all sorts of fancy whizzbangs back when their ROSCO assumed that there might be life left in the Pacer fleet post-PRM TIS deadline. On the published schedule (which has almost certainly slid to the right) the last 144 is due to leave January 2019 well before the last 142...
 

ChiefPlanner

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There was! A 2-car 144 was refurbished with all sorts of fancy whizzbangs back when their ROSCO assumed that there might be life left in the Pacer fleet post-PRM TIS deadline. On the published schedule (which has almost certainly slid to the right) the last 144 is due to leave January 2019 well before the last 142...
Thank you - a case of a ROSCO doing something speculatively , to no end commercial gain ......
 

aformeruser

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Thank you - a case of a ROSCO doing something speculatively , to no end commercial gain ......
Porterbrook produced it to show what could be done. However, the unit (which they refer to as the ePacer) doesn't fully meet the PRM spec but is close enough to only need minor exemptions (similar to the ones the 150s have been given) to remain in service beyond 2019. The biggest constraint is that 144 doesn't have that many more seats than a 153 currently has, so there's only a limited number of routes where one in single formation can be used and it's not really cost-effective to create 'ePacers' if they are only going to be used attached to Sprinters. There was also a rumour they were looking at converting 143s in to centre cars for 144s (or vice versa) to create 4 car sets but nothing ever came of that.
 

47802

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I suppose it depends how pressed they are for units to run the current timetable, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few withdrawn once the 6x170 which are due from Scotrail this month are up and running on Northern.
 

aformeruser

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On the published schedule (which has almost certainly slid to the right) the last 144 is due to leave January 2019 well before the last 142...
That's probably down to 144s being less versatile than 142s due to fewer crews signing them and possibly them not being cleared for some routes where 142s are cleared.
 

aformeruser

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I suppose it depends how pressed they are for units to run the current timetable, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few withdrawn once the 6x170 which are due from Scotrail this month are up and running on Northern.
It's 16 x 170s Northern should get in total and they were due to all be here by July 2018.

In total it's 70 carriages (35 x 2 car Pacers) which were down for withdrawal by the December timetable change. If we look at what Northern are currently missing:
8 x 769s (32 carriages)
3 x 2 car 150s (6 carriages)
That should mean until those missing trains (plus the 170s) arrive Northern can't release more than 18 x 2 car Pacers. Then it needs to be remembered Northern don't just have to receive the replacement units they have to introduce them in 'unrestricted use' for passenger services. So the fact that Northern received the GWR 150s late and are behind with refurbishments casts doubt over whether they'll even be able to release 18 x 2 car Pacers by the December timetable change.
 

superkev

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It's 16 x 170s Northern should get in total and they were due to all be here by July 2018.

In total it's 70 carriages (35 x 2 car Pacers) which were down for withdrawal by the December timetable change. If we look at what Northern are currently missing:
8 x 769s (32 carriages)
3 x 2 car 150s (6 carriages)
That should mean until those missing trains (plus the 170s) arrive Northern can't release more than 18 x 2 car Pacers. Then it needs to be remembered Northern don't just have to receive the replacement units they have to introduce them in 'unrestricted use' for passenger services. So the fact that Northern received the GWR 150s late and are behind with refurbishments casts doubt over whether they'll even be able to release 18 x 2 car Pacers by the December timetable change.
What about all the new 195''s
K
 

Eccles1983

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I hope we get another 5 years out of the class 142.

The backbone of the british railways, and a stubborn workhorse that never knows when to give up.

It's the ultimate underdog that continually and consistantly over performs.
 

KevinTurvey

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I travelled on two separate 142's today, one an ex First one and the other an ex Merseyrail.
I was gobsmacked that both had auto-announcing PA systems installed.
Does spending money on this sort of thing (albeit small) imply they will be around for a little longer than originally thought?
 

D2007wsm

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I don't know what the Northern Pacers are like, I haven't been on a train up that way for many years, so couldn't comment on their condition.

However, with a decent refurbishment and running on decent track they could be fine. The GWR 143s are not bad as they have had 2 extensive refurbishments, first by Wessex Trains which introduced 2x2 high back Chapman seats and then a, refurbishment by FGW changing the colour scheme. I would much rather have one of those than the horrible 150/1s.

If it wasn't for the ride quality, not having bogies and there limited capacity, if all of Northern's 142s had been refurbished to the same standard as GWR's 143s, would the travelling public detest them so much? From what I can make out, it is the TLC or lack of Northern's Pacers have had by previous operators which has earned their bad name. You don't see half as much negative press about GWRs 143s or even ATWs 142s and 143s in comparison.

They may have their faults, but they have kept going and on a suitable route, running in multiple and with some TLC they are useful and better than no train. I remember these growing up on the stopping services at my local station, which has now predominately graduated to Turbos, 158s and soon Mini HSTs.
 

47802

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I don't know what the Northern Pacers are like, I haven't been on a train up that way for many years, so couldn't comment on their condition.

However, with a decent refurbishment and running on decent track they could be fine. The GWR 143s are not bad as they have had 2 extensive refurbishments, first by Wessex Trains which introduced 2x2 high back Chapman seats and then a, refurbishment by FGW changing the colour scheme. I would much rather have one of those than the horrible 150/1s.

If it wasn't for the ride quality, not having bogies and there limited capacity, if all of Northern's 142s had been refurbished to the same standard as GWR's 143s, would the travelling public detest them so much? From what I can make out, it is the TLC or lack of Northern's Pacers have had by previous operators which has earned their bad name. You don't see half as much negative press about GWRs 143s or even ATWs 142s and 143s in comparison.

They may have their faults, but they have kept going and on a suitable route, running in multiple and with some TLC they are useful and better than no train. I remember these growing up on the stopping services at my local station, which has now predominately graduated to Turbos, 158s and soon Mini HSTs.
GWR 143's are luxurious compared to a Northern 142, and part of the problem was the disgraceful state of the interior and cleaning in general of all Northern Trains not just the Pacers in the previous franchise, not that the current franchise is doing a whole lot better in many of these respects, but it doesn't alter the fact that pacers are overdue for the bin and definitely need to go by the end of 2019.
 

_toommm_

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I travelled on two separate 142's today, one an ex First one and the other an ex Merseyrail.
I was gobsmacked that both had auto-announcing PA systems installed.
Does spending money on this sort of thing (albeit small) imply they will be around for a little longer than originally thought?
No 142s have auto PA to my knowledge...
 

158752

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All the former Mersey Rail liveried 142's had a LAWO P.I.S installed with auto announce function. As far as I recall union opposition saw the use of the announcement function never used despite being functional until at least 2017, at which point standard Northern route destination codes were rolled out across the entire P.I.S installed diesel and electric fleets.
The only way a 142 would be auto announcing nowadays were if it was coupled to a modified class 150/156 with the new TrainFX and it was set up from the control unit on those. This however isn't supposed to be done as there is an issue with the head units on non TrainFX fitted trains which don't allow correct interface between the two types.
 

Cardiff123

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I hope we get another 5 years out of the class 142.

The backbone of the british railways, and a stubborn workhorse that never knows when to give up.

It's the ultimate underdog that continually and consistantly over performs.
5 years? o_O 142s need to be binned in 5 weeks, let alone 5 years.

ATW have recently given their Pacers a thorough interior refresh, even installing Wifi, but it doesn't change the fact a Pacer is still a Pacer.
They need to go and go ASAP.
 

alexl92

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That's probably down to 144s being less versatile than 142s due to fewer crews signing them and possibly them not being cleared for some routes where 142s are cleared.
Why don’t as many crews sign them, and whats the route clearance difference? I thought they were pretty similar in all respects? All utterly awful, mind
 

alangla

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When the class 320s were being fitted with internal PIS & auto announce, if you were on a double set with a refurbished unit leading an unrefurbed one, the audio of the auto announcement could be heard in the unfitted unit, presumably being relayed via the PA system connection in the coupler - is this possibly what's happened here?
 

PomWombat

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5 years? o_O 142s need to be binned in 5 weeks, let alone 5 years.

They need to go and go ASAP.
I was in a 3-car pacer this evening, but wish I noted the number. The seat backs were the white bulbous plastic bucket design which I find most restrictive on my knees - the mouldings make it impossible to put knees between seats. If I have to sit in an airline-style seat, then I have to sit in the middle of two seats, with my legs at more than a 90 degrees to fit them in.

I know Northern need to fit more people in, but we're not all midgets!
 

PomWombat

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However, with a decent refurbishment and running on decent track they could be fine.
LOL. They need to hand out ear defenders for pacers going through the Bramhope tunnel (why is it so noisy in the middle of the tunnel?) and for the bend approaching the Crimple viaduct. I pity the people living in the house next to that curve...
 

chrissawer

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The only way a 142 would be auto announcing nowadays were if it was coupled to a modified class 150/156 with the new TrainFX and it was set up from the control unit on those. This however isn't supposed to be done as there is an issue with the head units on non TrainFX fitted trains which don't allow correct interface between the two types.
I'm sure I've heard automated announcements on Northern 142s a couple of times recently, they were coupled up to other units so I assumed that what you've described was happening and the announcements were coming from the other unit.
 

KevinTurvey

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I'm sure I've heard automated announcements on Northern 142s a couple of times recently, they were coupled up to other units so I assumed that what you've described was happening and the announcements were coming from the other unit.
Thanks - this now makes more sense, yes they were coupled up to a 150 and 156 each time.
 

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