Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

aformeruser

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Why don’t as many crews sign them, and whats the route clearance difference? I thought they were pretty similar in all respects? All utterly awful, mind
144s are a different train to 142s even though they are in the same family, so a train crew signing a 142 doesn't mean they can just work a 144 without any further training and neither does it mean a 142 being cleared for a route automatically means a 144 is cleared. There's 4 times as many 142s in the fleet as 144s and the 144s mainly stay on Yorkshire routes due to former PTE sponsorship, so there's lots of crews who don't sign 144s.
 
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aformeruser

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I was in a 3-car pacer this evening, but wish I noted the number. The seat backs were the white bulbous plastic bucket design which I find most restrictive on my knees - the mouldings make it impossible to put knees between seats. If I have to sit in an airline-style seat, then I have to sit in the middle of two seats, with my legs at more than a 90 degrees to fit them in.

I know Northern need to fit more people in, but we're not all midgets!
There's only 10 x 3 car Pacers in existence anywhere and they are all 144s based at Neville Hill with the same type of seating as each other, so you would have had the same 'experience' whichever one of the 3 car 144s it was.
 

Journeyman

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I hope we get another 5 years out of the class 142.

The backbone of the british railways, and a stubborn workhorse that never knows when to give up.

It's the ultimate underdog that continually and consistantly over performs.
I'm certainly quite fond of them, in a funny sort of a way, and I'll miss them when they're gone. At a time when BR were desperately short of money and needing to replace a load of knackered old DMUs, they stepped up and did the job. And they've continued to be useful as usage of the network has gone through the roof.
 

aformeruser

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I'm certainly quite fond of them, in a funny sort of a way, and I'll miss them when they're gone. At a time when BR were desperately short of money and needing to replace a load of knackered old DMUs, they stepped up and did the job. And they've continued to be useful as usage of the network has gone through the roof.
Apart from they didn't. They were found to be unsuitable for the curvy branch lines they were intended for meaning most of the 155s got converted to 153s for the curvy branch lines, leaving Pacers for routes they weren't really suited for.
 

47802

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I'm certainly quite fond of them, in a funny sort of a way, and I'll miss them when they're gone. At a time when BR were desperately short of money and needing to replace a load of knackered old DMUs, they stepped up and did the job. And they've continued to be useful as usage of the network has gone through the roof.
As already eluded to by 'Jcollins' the main problem for Northern was that they have far too many of the things and end up on longish routes like Leeds Morecambe, Carlisle Newcastle, and the Cumbrian Coast which they are totally unsuitable for, and even medium distance routes like Sheffield Lincoln where they are providing the only service between 2 major Cities is not satisfactory in my view.

Yes you could argue that retaining refurbished epacer 144's for such as local routes in West Yorkshire would have been acceptable, but I personally think its time for substancial improvement in the quality of Rolling Stock in the Northern Franchise, and probably even the commitment to get rid of Pacers doesn't really go far enough.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I'm certainly quite fond of them, in a funny sort of a way, and I'll miss them when they're gone. At a time when BR were desperately short of money and needing to replace a load of knackered old DMUs, they stepped up and did the job. And they've continued to be useful as usage of the network has gone through the roof.
As enthusiasts it's totally fine to get sentimental about change, especially with units that we saw from new and grew up with. I remember when the later Pacers were brand new, at the time I'd rather the old heritage units had been fettled and retained but I was too young to appreciate how mammoth a task that would be.

I'll be glad to see (and hear!) the end of Pacers round here but I do hope that there'll be the opportunity to trundle along at 25mph on one somewhere, just for old-times sake.
 

GrahamD83

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I have to admit I will miss the 142's, I live in the north east where they have been running for as long as I have been travelling by train, I have fond memories. I will only miss the piercing screech as they enter Sunderland station (which is underground and enclosed for those who don't know). I have been on a trip to Manchester today and was able see quite a few of the units allocated to the North west region, including the first one 142001. I am actually on a mission to try and spot them all before they go. Hopefully I can make it to Cardiff one day to see the ATW ones.
 

LOL The Irony

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As already eluded to by 'Jcollins' the main problem for Northern was that they have far too many of the things and end up on longish routes like Leeds Morecambe, Carlisle Newcastle, and the Cumbrian Coast which they are totally unsuitable for, and even medium distance routes like Sheffield Lincoln where they are providing the only service between 2 major Cities is not satisfactory in my view.
They've also been used on shared Northern/ScotRail services before.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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All the former Mersey Rail liveried 142's had a LAWO P.I.S installed with auto announce function. As far as I recall union opposition saw the use of the announcement function never used despite being functional until at least 2017, at which point standard Northern route destination codes were rolled out across the entire P.I.S installed diesel and electric fleets.
The only way a 142 would be auto announcing nowadays were if it was coupled to a modified class 150/156 with the new TrainFX and it was set up from the control unit on those. This however isn't supposed to be done as there is an issue with the head units on non TrainFX fitted trains which don't allow correct interface between the two types.
The system was tied in with the electronic destination displays (which were just as cheap and nasty as the rest of the train!) and had to be set up by the driver. Given the surprising variety of stopping patterns, especially in the peak hours, it meant having to carefully check before activating the auto announce. The lack of an agreement with ASLEF didn't stop the occasional driver firing up the system much to the consternation of their guard. Refurbishment of the 319s for Northern led to the introduction of the newer system standard, hence the re-activation of what might have appeared to be a defunct bit of kit.
 

bluenoxid

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There also needs to be a dislike button too :lol:

They do a job but the time has come for the whole rail network to get rid of the fleet. I hope that a number see further service on heritage lines.
 

yorksrob

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That's probably down to 144s being less versatile than 142s due to fewer crews signing them and possibly them not being cleared for some routes where 142s are cleared.
Which is a shame as the 144's are far superior in terms of passenger accommodation to he 142's.
 

superkev

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Based upon an average Class 142, what do people think is the worst current defect they have experienced when travelling on them from a passenger point of view?
Everyone with their hands over there ears when negotiating St Dunstans curve out of Bradford. Yes I have seen it as the tyre squeal bounces off the walls. Amazing someone hasn't sued for hearing damage .Horrid things.
K
 

61653 HTAFC

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Which is a shame as the 144's are far superior in terms of passenger accommodation to he 142's.
I disagree, if the 142 is one of the Northern Spirit refurbs. Otherwise, fair enough. AIUI the ATW Pacers (142/143) are fairly similar inside- both not dissimilar to the 144s in terms of seating. The 143/144s do seem a bit more solid and better thought-out, what with not having the back walls of the cabs blocking the rear of the cabside windows!
 

yorksrob

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I disagree, if the 142 is one of the Northern Spirit refurbs. Otherwise, fair enough. AIUI the ATW Pacers (142/143) are fairly similar inside- both not dissimilar to the 144s in terms of seating. The 143/144s do seem a bit more solid and better thought-out, what with not having the back walls of the cabs blocking the rear of the cabside windows!
Well, fair points, but I've done the not quite two hours on the Leeds-Lancaster many times and found it to be quite acceptable !
 

yorksrob

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I think we can all agree that as long as its not a dreaded Merseyrail pacer, we can at least breathe a sigh of relief !
 

aformeruser

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Which is a shame as the 144's are far superior in terms of passenger accommodation to he 142's.
I disagree, if the 142 is one of the Northern Spirit refurbs. Otherwise, fair enough. AIUI the ATW Pacers (142/143) are fairly similar inside- both not dissimilar to the 144s in terms of seating. The 143/144s do seem a bit more solid and better thought-out, what with not having the back walls of the cabs blocking the rear of the cabside windows!
I personally find the 144 seating better than the Northern Spirit 142, as well as the 144 ride quality being better and don't squeal as much. However, the disadvantage is both have fewer seats than the other Pacers even if most prefer 2+2 to 3+2, if it's a service where there's a lot of schoolkids on board 3+2 is an advantage. A Northern Spirit 142 turned up on one of the quieter Mid-Cheshire services last week and despite it not being one of the busier services there were very few empty seats available.
 

aformeruser

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Safety, ride & comfort
It's surely a bit ironic that the RMT are citing safety in the DOO dispute when it's debatable whether that's been proven but it has been proven that Pacers are less safe than other types of DMUs and yet the RMT don't seem bothered about the fact that their members are more likely to be seriously injured if a Pacer crashes than another type of train.
 

aformeruser

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Everyone with their hands over there ears when negotiating St Dunstans curve out of Bradford. Yes I have seen it as the tyre squeal bounces off the walls. Amazing someone hasn't sued for hearing damage .Horrid things.
K
Is that going towards Halifax or going towards Leeds? If it's going towards Halifax I've done it on a 144 and not noticed anything louder than you get with 142s going to Altrincham or Marple.
 

aformeruser

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I hope we get another 5 years out of the class 142.
If you want 5 years out of them their annual mileage will need to be halved and PRM requirements will have to be ignored as well. The Voith final drives and carden shafts that were fitted to the 142s will be life expired before the end of 2020 unless their annual mileage is reduced.
 

Chester1

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It's 16 x 170s Northern should get in total and they were due to all be here by July 2018.

In total it's 70 carriages (35 x 2 car Pacers) which were down for withdrawal by the December timetable change. If we look at what Northern are currently missing:
8 x 769s (32 carriages)
3 x 2 car 150s (6 carriages)
That should mean until those missing trains (plus the 170s) arrive Northern can't release more than 18 x 2 car Pacers. Then it needs to be remembered Northern don't just have to receive the replacement units they have to introduce them in 'unrestricted use' for passenger services. So the fact that Northern received the GWR 150s late and are behind with refurbishments casts doubt over whether they'll even be able to release 18 x 2 car Pacers by the December timetable change.
Northern are also short of approximately 16 units / 32 coaches because of the delay in electrification. There isn't a chance of pacers going off lease before December but assuming electrification is done and the cascaded and new stock arrives then they could catch up with the schedule very quickly after December.
 

superkev

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Is that going towards Halifax or going towards Leeds? If it's going towards Halifax I've done it on a 144 and not noticed anything louder than you get with 142s going to Altrincham or Marple.
St Dunstans curve towards Leeds.
Another location where they can get stuck is the curve onto crumple viaduct.
K
 

mde

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It's surely a bit ironic that the RMT are citing safety in the DOO dispute when it's debatable whether that's been proven but it has been proven that Pacers are less safe than other types of DMUs and yet the RMT don't seem bothered about the fact that their members are more likely to be seriously injured if a Pacer crashes than another type of train.
You do know the RMT have been complaining about the Pacers for years, right?

Regardless, it's not really a like for like comparison.
 

aformeruser

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You do know the RMT have been complaining about the Pacers for years, right?

Regardless, it's not really a like for like comparison.
That article focuses on D-Train conversion with a single sentence criticising continued use of 'clapped out' Pacers (not 'unsafe' Pacers.)

Then it states

The RMT campaign is taking five key messages out to the travelling public:

*SAY NO to Driver Only Operated Trains

*Keep OUR Ticket Offices Open

*Keep OUR Stations Staffed and Safe

*STOP CUTS to the Transpennine Express Network

*OPPOSE Massive Fare Increases.
It seems they would prefer Pacers or D-Trains with guards over brand new trains without.
 

mde

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That article focuses on D-Train conversion with a single sentence criticising continued use of 'clapped out' Pacers (not 'unsafe' Pacers.)
It was merely one source, there are others.

The point is, it'd be distorting the truth if you said they were in favour of continued operation of the Pacers. But… there are, perhaps, bigger priorities than removing them without a credible replacement (which their members are happy with).
 

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