Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

aformeruser

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It was merely one source, there are others.

The point is, it'd be distorting the truth if you said they were in favour of continued operation of the Pacers. But… there are, perhaps, bigger priorities than removing them without a credible replacement (which their members are happy with).
How many times have the RMT gone on strike over safety concerns regarding Pacers since 1985 citing safety concerns as the reason for the strike?
How many times have the RMT gone over strike over the potential removal of guards in 2019 citing safety concerns as the reason for the strike?

Noting there's conclusive evidence that Pacers are less safe than Sprinters, while there's no conclusive evidence that DOO is less safe than guard operated trains.
 
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HSTEd

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Has there ever been a passenger fatality aboard a Pacer? (Excluding things not related to the train like a heart attack or what not)
 

aformeruser

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Has there ever been a passenger fatality aboard a Pacer? (Excluding things not related to the train like a heart attack or what not)
Pointless question. Did the fatality on the Pendolino in Cumbria occur because the train was a Pendolino or would the death toll have been higher if it had been another type of train? And were the injured passengers needing hospital treatment irrelevant?
 

HSTEd

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Pointless question. Did the fatality on the Pendolino in Cumbria occur because the train was a Pendolino or would the death toll have been higher if it had been another type of train? And were the injured passengers needing hospital treatment irrelevant?
The question is very far from pointless as it provides a useful reality check on how dangerous the train actually is

Travelling by Pacer is still one of the safest means of travel available, so demanding they be scrapped for safety issues is rather ludicrous.
 

aformeruser

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The question is very far from pointless as it provides a useful reality check on how dangerous the train actually is

Travelling by Pacer is still one of the safest means of travel available, so demanding they be scrapped for safety issues is rather ludicrous.
By that logic a DOO train is also extremely safe, yet the RMT want to claim they are unsafe.

Had the Pacer which collided with the HST at Winsford had a guard in the rear cab there would have been a funeral for the guard soon after. There's no doubt about that.

I've been on a Pacer which has done an emergency stop and on a coach which left the road while travelling down a dual carriageway at high speed. In both cases no-one needed hospital treatment but the two are comparable.
 

LOL The Irony

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Way back in July 1999
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/383785.stm
Rail safety inspectors are concerned that South Wales commuter trains do not meet current safety standards.
An investigation has been prompted by the train crash at Winsford in Cheshire two weeks ago, when 31 people were injured in a collision between a Pacer commuter train and a high speed inter-city train.

The railway inspectors say lightweight rail-bus trains do not meet current safety standards and they are concerned that some of them are now being used on the same tracks as conventional heavyweight inter-city and freight trains.

More exposed to collision

Deputy chief inspector Bob Smallwood said: "Clearly, Pacers were not built to current crash-worthiness standards and they don't behave as well as more modern rolling stock.

"What we're particularly looking at is whether or not the pattern of usage on the network has changed and they are more exposed to the type of collision that happened at Winsford or to collision with heavy freight trains."

Virtually demolished

At Winsford, one carriage of the rail-bus train was virtually demolished while the inter-city express suffered only light damage.

The inspectors say they will be looking at whether rail-bus trains should be more strictly segregated from conventional trains and whether any safety modifications can be made.

It was the first time that a lightweight train had been involved in an accident with a conventional heavyweight train.

Pacers were built in the 1980s as a cheap branch line train by bolting a bus body onto a freight line chassis.

Defended

Brian Curtis, South Wales and west of England divisional officer for the Rail Maritime Transport (RMT) union defended their safety record.

"For the last 15 years they have not been involved in any serious accidents."

"Obviously there are concerns, but you have to put it into perspective.

"These Pacers have been running around the system for 15 years and have proved very safe for the job they are designed to do."
 

GrahamD83

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I spent around 3.5 hours at Newcastle Central Station this moning and there seemed to be less Class 142s running than usual, only three different units sighted. Most Northern services being run by Sprinters today.

Have some units been swapped around between depots recently?
 

DanNCL

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I spent around 3.5 hours at Newcastle Central Station this moning and there seemed to be less Class 142s running than usual, only three different units sighted. Most Northern services being run by Sprinters today.

Have some units been swapped around between depots recently?
The changes in the North East are related to the May timetable change. Morpeth and Carlisle services from Newcastle now interwork and are now mostly 156 operated, with Allerton units operating quite a few Tyne Valley services too. The 142s are still around, but they seem to be more concentrated around Middlesbrough than Newcastle these days. Virtually everything on the Tees Valley line is still 142 operated, as are most services on the Durham Coast.
 

Anvil1984

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Heaton Depot took some 156s off Allerton Depot at the last timetable change (Most of them are still in Lancashire daily but a few more are seen up here as a result). This was due to the small uplift of services in the area so you will see extra 156s in the North East. As mentioned Tyne Valley is mostly 156, Durham Coast about 50/50 156 v 142 (including use of a Scotrail 156 on 1 diagram) and Tees Valley is mostly 142 but has a solo daytime 156 diagram for the first time in many years
 

DanNCL

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Heaton Depot took some 156s off Allerton Depot at the last timetable change (Most of them are still in Lancashire daily but a few more are seen up here as a result). This was due to the small uplift of services in the area so you will see extra 156s in the North East.
Do you know which units have moved from Allerton to Heaton?

As mentioned Tyne Valley is mostly 156, Durham Coast about 50/50 156 v 142 (including use of a Scotrail 156 on 1 diagram) and Tees Valley is mostly 142 but has a solo daytime 156 diagram for the first time in many years
I've personally not seen a 142 work west of Hexham since the timetable change, although that doesn't nessecarilly mean that one hasn't.

I did notice a 156 on a Bishop Auckland service a few weeks back - which was a very big surprise as before the timetable change it was just 142s. It's good to see that they now have a regular working down there.

A total of 3 ScotRail 156s work in the North East on a weekday - one operates the 06:30 Newcastle - Glasgow, one operates the 16:13 Glasgow - Newcastle, and one operates a diagram from Carlisle, working Carlisle - Nunthorpe - Hexham - Newcastle - Morpeth - Carlisle.

The Teesside Airport parliamentary service used to throw up both 142s and 156s, but since the timetable change I've only seen 142s on it, so the 142s definitely aren't out yet!
 

Anvil1984

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Do you know which units have moved from Allerton to Heaton?


I've personally not seen a 142 work west of Hexham since the timetable change, although that doesn't nessecarilly mean that one hasn't.

I did notice a 156 on a Bishop Auckland service a few weeks back - which was a very big surprise as before the timetable change it was just 142s. It's good to see that they now have a regular working down there.

A total of 3 ScotRail 156s work in the North East on a weekday - one operates the 06:30 Newcastle - Glasgow, one operates the 16:13 Glasgow - Newcastle, and one operates a diagram from Carlisle, working Carlisle - Nunthorpe - Hexham - Newcastle - Morpeth - Carlisle.

The Teesside Airport parliamentary service used to throw up both 142s and 156s, but since the timetable change I've only seen 142s on it, so the 142s definitely aren't out yet!
Briefing note we received said 21 x 156 but I'm cynical and don't know which ones sadly

At least 2 services Newcastle to Carlisle are booked 142s on our diagrams, 1216 Newcastle to Carlisle and 2100 Morpeth to Carlisle there could be one or two more
 

DanNCL

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Briefing note we received said 21 x 156 but I'm cynical and don't know which ones sadly
I'd be very surprised if 21 units had transferred, perhaps 21 is the total allocation including the units that Heaton already had?

I personally suspect 156429 may be one of them, seeing as I've seen it on the Tyne Valley quite a bit recently, but wouldn't be certain of any of them - I'll keep a look out though, take a note of which Allerton units are starting to appear regularly in the NE, and post them on here.

At least 2 services Newcastle to Carlisle are booked 142s on our diagrams, 1216 Newcastle to Carlisle and 2100 Morpeth to Carlisle there could be one or two more
Good to know that 142s do still occasionally make it out there!
 

433N

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I noticed a few 156s on Tyne Valley services which I thought were AN on Wednesday (156425, 156429, 156472 - all AN according to abrail)

Also 2 x 142 on Newcastle services

142025 on
1N59 11:15 Newcastle – Carlisle
1N64 12:47 Carlisle – Newcastle

and

142064 on
1N61 12:15 Newcastle – Carlisle
1N66 13:46 Carlisle – Newcastle

v. short turnarounds on these at Carlisle now.
 

_toommm_

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The one thing I will miss is the bench-style seating on the Hope Valley route - it makes for panoramic views due to the seats being below window-height and the pillars not being that big at all - one of the only times I'd choose to travel on one. That, and the route from Stalybridge to Huddersfield.
 

simon7929

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Since the timetable change there are definitely more 156s in the North East. Not sure if any diagrams are booked a 156 on the Tees Valley during the day though. Some early runs which head to Newcastle via Durham are 156 booked but that's it. However Sunday does see some 156 units booked during the day. There is no accurate allocation lists on the web unfortunately so it's hard to know which 156s have been transferred to Heaton. As stated above in an earlier post. The units work over to the West and vice versa so impossible to distinguish. Going on what I've have seen since the timetable change, I would say that the 10 Angel leased units are the ones that have come from Allerton joining the 14 already based at Heaton since the timetable change.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The one thing I will miss is the bench-style seating on the Hope Valley route - it makes for panoramic views due to the seats being below window-height and the pillars not being that big at all - one of the only times I'd choose to travel on one. That, and the route from Stalybridge to Huddersfield.
Hopefully the KWVR and/or NYMR will grab one on the cheap, then!
 
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Hopefully the KWVR and/or NYMR will grab one on the cheap, then!
Hopefully the only people anywhere near Keighley who’ll be buying retired Pacers are Crossley Evans scrapyard in Shipley!

Do we need to preserve a Pacer in the NRM to show how things used to be in BR and demonstrate British ingenuity in the face of tight budgets? Yes.
Does it need to be kept running, on a heritage line with jointed rail, tight curves and very steep gradients? :s
 

61653 HTAFC

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Hopefully the only people anywhere near Keighley who’ll be buying retired Pacers are Crossley Evans scrapyard in Shipley!

Do we need to preserve a Pacer in the NRM to show how things used to be in BR and demonstrate British ingenuity in the face of tight budgets? Yes.
Does it need to be kept running, on a heritage line with jointed rail, tight curves and very steep gradients? :s
Fair points, though KWVR have one of the "grandparents" of the Pacers in the form of the W&M Railbus so it would be fitting to have one there- particularly a 144 as they were staple traction on Airedale for many years. Even if it never leaves the yard at Oxenhope!
 

yorksrob

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I hope a 144 is preserved in mainline condition. Perhaps in twenty years time it can do a railtour over the Little North Western to Lancaster !
 

Geeves

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With the 156s and Northerns random unit generation system even though a 156 is now Allocated to have its home depot at Heaton that doesn't mean it wont turn up virtually anywhere on the Northern network. As far as I understand it, Allerton's entire allocation of 156s now have been reallocated to Heaton as their home depot to free up space for 331s pending arrivals and potentially the 323s.
 

sprinterguy

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Do we need to preserve a Pacer in the NRM to show how things used to be in BR and demonstrate British ingenuity in the face of tight budgets? Yes.
There already is a Pacer in the National Collection - the prototype unit 140001. It's been languishing at the Keith & Dufftown Railway for some years, with only local volunteer support to restore it. The NRM are unlikely to be interested in a production unit as well.
 

mde

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There already is a Pacer in the National Collection - the prototype unit 140001. It's been languishing at the Keith & Dufftown Railway for some years, with only local volunteer support to restore it. The NRM are unlikely to be interested in a production unit as well.
142 001 is on the list for NRM.
 

billio

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The one thing I will miss is the bench-style seating on the Hope Valley route - it makes for panoramic views due to the seats being below window-height and the pillars not being that big at all - one of the only times I'd choose to travel on one. That, and the route from Stalybridge to Huddersfield.
You make a good point about visibility from a Pacer, one has a much better than the view from a Mark 1 compartment or even an open carriage. Passengers on heritage railways with scenic routes could particularly benefit.
 

davart

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I actually quite like the Pacers. The bus seats are quite 'airy', you can see everywhere easily.

I suppose they do have an interesting ride. I remember getting them to university in the 90s in Sheffield. I could close my eyes and know exactly where we were due to the squeals and track jointing, along with a 'wobble' in one or two places.

I think it's amazing that they've lasted so long. Personally, I prefer the original interiors.

I'm sure many will disagree and that's fine. I wonder if it's possible to manufacture new Pacers, but design out some of the flaws.

For shorter journeys, I think they do the trick.
 

Roger100

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As others say, we still have plenty on the Durham Coast, although a few ScotRail Sprinters are creeping in. Sometimes they are coupled together - the early morning train splits at Hartlepool with the Sprinter going north and the Pacer south. Of course we will miss the squealing at Hartlepool, but to be fair they are not alone in creating that soundscape.
Hopefully there will be a final Northern Pacer tour, as Grand Central did before their HSTs went back.

Pacer.jpg
 

aformeruser

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As others say, we still have plenty on the Durham Coast, although a few ScotRail Sprinters are creeping in.
Do you mean some Scotrail 156s have transferred (which hasn't been reported anywhere) or are the 2 x ex-Scotrail 158s being used in the North East?
 

yorksrob

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Personally I'd be happy for them to keep a 142 back in order to strengthen Whitby runs on summer Saturdays. Better than trying to crowd everyone in a 156.

My fear is that with all these new trains, such services will still be left without any passenger capacity increase.
 

DanNCL

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Do you mean some Scotrail 156s have transferred (which hasn't been reported anywhere) or are the 2 x ex-Scotrail 158s being used in the North East?
There's a daily diagram in the North East that uses a hired in ScotRail 156, and a different unit is hired in each day. The diagram visits Nunthorpe, so that'll be why ScotRail 156s have been spotted in Hartlepool
 

Roger100

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Personally I'd be happy for them to keep a 142 back in order to strengthen Whitby runs on summer Saturdays. Better than trying to crowd everyone in a 156.

My fear is that with all these new trains, such services will still be left without any passenger capacity increase.
The Pacers do get pretty full, standing room only. Replacing them with 2-car Sprinter units won't improve this at all although passengers won't be bounced around so much. But it appears that here in the north east we get other lines left-overs. None of the new trains Northern are leasing will appear on the Durham Coast.
 

Roger100

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There's a daily diagram in the North East that uses a hired in ScotRail 156, and a different unit is hired in each day. The diagram visits Nunthorpe, so that'll be why ScotRail 156s have been spotted in Hartlepool
Yes, there are a variety of 156 units with different liveries. This one was seen early July, passing one of the local industrial delights.156435.jpg
 

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