Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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aformeruser

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The 170s are 3 coaches long so in reality on a like for like direct replacement basis then you are gaining an extra coach.
The 170's coaches are longer too, so a 3-coach 170 can carry roughly the same number of people as 4 coaches of pacer units. With the advantage that they can't get short-formed.
But the problem is there's extra services to run as well, not to mention existing services which are short of capacity. The release date was based on a lot of electrification being completed by last December which didn't happen and much of it still isn't completed and the class 769 workaround solution is also not evident yet.
 

Chester1

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I have it on good authority that withdrawal of the 2-car 144s will now commence in early 2019, and that some will head to Wales to help cover during PRM modifications.
That makes sense, with Northern prioritising getting rid of the Angel Trains 142s over Porterbrook 144s. The posts on the Bolton thread seem to be very positive about EMUs opperating on the line by the end of the year. Combined with the arrival of the remaining cascaded units, 195s and 331s it seems a sensible new timetable.
 

yorksrob

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Im still hoping that there'll be a 142 repainted in each of their original liveries: Provincial blue; "skipper" chocolate and cream; and GMPTE orange... not holding my breath though!
Yes, it would be nice, but I suppose there are a lot of them (old liveries, that is).
 

Cardiff123

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I have it on good authority that withdrawal of the 2-car 144s will now commence in early 2019, and that some will head to Wales to help cover during PRM modifications.
That makes sense, with Northern prioritising getting rid of the Angel Trains 142s over Porterbrook 144s. The posts on the Bolton thread seem to be very positive about EMUs opperating on the line by the end of the year. Combined with the arrival of the remaining cascaded units, 195s and 331s it seems a sensible new timetable.
AmateurRambler said that withdrawal of 2-car 144s will commence in early 2019 to send them to Wales. Nothing about Angel's 142s heading to Wales, so your post doesn't make sense.
 

yorksrob

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AmateurRambler said that withdrawal of 2-car 144s will commence in early 2019 to send them to Wales. Nothing about Angel's 142s heading to Wales, so your post doesn't make sense.
Yes, sadly I believe we are to be stuck with the worst of the bunch for longer.
 

Chester1

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AmateurRambler said that withdrawal of 2-car 144s will commence in early 2019 to send them to Wales. Nothing about Angel's 142s heading to Wales, so your post doesn't make sense.
Yes, sadly I believe we are to be stuck with the worst of the bunch for longer.
AmateurRambler only referenced the 2 car 144s staying for longer than originally planned and then going to Wales early next year. They will be leaving weeks or months after the likely Manchester-Preston electrification completion and new stock should have started to arrive too. Therefore some pacers should be redundant from December and as Northern appear to be keeping all of their 144s into 2019, it would be the 142s that go off lease. The number freed up by electrification and cascaded stock roughly matches the number of 142s meant to go off lease by December under Northern's original plan.
 

Bikeman78

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The 170's coaches are longer too, so a 3-coach 170 can carry roughly the same number of people as 4 coaches of pacer units. With the advantage that they can't get short-formed.
Absolutely, a three car 170 is 69 metres long; a four car Pacer is around 60 metres.

John
 

PomWombat

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Absolutely, a three car 170 is 69 metres long; a four car Pacer is around 60 metres.
I'll add a bit of my experience of the Harrogate line as these 170's have been introduced (and, presumably, Pacers and Sprinters re-purposed elsewhere) ... Mostly from the morning peaks into Leeds and evening peaks back again.

Before the timetable change, the line would just about cope, provided nothing was cancelled or short-formed. In the peaks, trains are every 10-20 mins. Most trains would gradually become 2-3 mins delayed over the Leeds-Harrogate section, but otherwise nothing spectacular. But a cancellation or short-form would just cascade problems ... one overcrowded train/platform would lead to over 10-15 minutes delay, pushing back into the next train, which was trundling along close behind but relatively empty.

The timetable change brought some 170's, which stabilised to 3 regular diagrams (2 Knaresborough, 1 York). The other trains were still a mish-mash, and still subject to both cancellations and short-forms. Delayed starts from either end, and waits outside Leeds meant the initial service ran regularly enough, but with varied delays. At Leeds, for some reason, people preferred to (over)crowd onto a 2-coach pacer rather than take the comfortable 170 with air-con that would follow 10 minutes later.

As we reached August, things stayed in this state.

September seems to have brought much more stability. There's a 4th 170 running now (though only on a diagram that runs in the peaks/evening), and it strikes me that there is much less short-forming on the line. Platform choices at Leeds have been sorted out, and trains quite regularly depart on time from Leeds or Harrogate. There's still a gradual decay on punctuality along the section inbetween, though. But the service feels pretty good now.
 

WillPS

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Have some pacers come off lease or are they hanging a bit longer due to delays in the cascades from other TOCs?
Post #2 of this very thread shows the first batch were to be released on November 10th, 2018 - so they're not even late yet.

But yes, it's likely they will be delayed until after Christmas now.
 

jonesy3001

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Post #2 of this very thread shows the first batch were to be released on November 10th, 2018 - so they're not even late yet.

But yes, it's likely they will be delayed until after Christmas now.
Says the first 10 144 vehicles should have been off lease on saturday but its northern i don't think they know themselves whats going on.
 
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Eyersey468

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That's probably down to 144s being less versatile than 142s due to fewer crews signing them and possibly them not being cleared for some routes where 142s are cleared.
How much difference is there between Class 142 and 144? I'm just wondering why a 144 can't always run where a 142 does
 

Journeyman

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How much difference is there between Class 142 and 144? I'm just wondering why a 144 can't always run where a 142 does
Crew traction knowledge, mainly. They're broadly similar, but there are some differences that require specific training for 144s, and not many crews have that training. The 142 can therefore operate over a much wider area.
 

aformeruser

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Says the first 10 144 vehicles should have been off lease on saturday but its northern i don't think they know themselves whats going on.
Correction - all the Pacers are leased until 31st December 2019. However, Northern have the option to return them from the 'scheduled release dates' provided sufficient replacement units are in unrestricted revenue earning service. Given Northern are at least 10 carriages down on what they should have there's no chance of any units being released until more cascaded units arrive.
 

AMD

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As we approach November are we any clearer which is the first to go
It should be the 144s, as only east side crews sign them whereas virtually everyone signs a 142, so in light of the current fleet challenges it makes it easier to plan and recover the service with a 142.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It should be the 144s, as only east side crews sign them whereas virtually everyone signs a 142, so in light of the current fleet challenges it makes it easier to plan and recover the service with a 142.
The plan was for the 2-car 144s to be first to go, but obviously everything is delayed a bit. If any are needed to cover in South Wales (no idea if that's still likely) 144s* would be a simple conversion from 143s, though 142s would require none at all (apart from the Miserytravel ones with their primitive PIS).

*=apart from 012, which is the non-standard "Evolution" unit. Would be handy for Cardiff Bay though.
 

SC43090

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Yes the 144's will be going to Wales, probably in December as it stands Northern should be getting some cascaded units from Scotrail at the December timetable change.... AS long as Scotrail introduce the slam door HST turns in the December timetable change which as been talked about in other threads...

SC43090
 

Cardiff123

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Yes the 144's will be going to Wales, probably in December as it stands Northern should be getting some cascaded units from Scotrail at the December timetable change.... AS long as Scotrail introduce the slam door HST turns in the December timetable change which as been talked about in other threads...

SC43090
How do you know this for certain?
When passengers tweet TfW Rail about overcrowding they tweet back no extra trains until next year at the earliest.
Of course that could be because the TfW PR team is shouting about getting rid if Pacers and TfW Rail are under orders not to advertise, in the short term, they are actually getting more.
 

61653 HTAFC

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How do you know this for certain?
When passengers tweet TfW Rail about overcrowding they tweet back no extra trains until next year at the earliest.
Of course that could be because the TfW PR team is shouting about getting rid if Pacers and TfW Rail are under orders not to advertise, in the short term, they are actually getting more.
So if they do get a few 144s, I'd be expecting them repainted and with seats recovered before they enter service, in the hope that only the spotters will notice!
 

superkev

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With no sign of new or bi modes I can't see northern withdrawing any until the promised but not materialising second hand dmu's appear. From 507021 excellent list I make it expected are 5 150s: 5 156: 5 158s and 6 170s.
When any of these will actually appear I know not.
K
 

Geeves

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So if they do get a few 144s, I'd be expecting them repainted and with seats recovered before they enter service, in the hope that only the spotters will notice!
That will be interesting because to do so would mean spending money painting them up in a TOCs livery that no longer exists!
 

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