Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

Chester1

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With no sign of new or bi modes I can't see northern withdrawing any until the promised but not materialising second hand dmu's appear. From 507021 excellent list I make it expected are 5 150s: 5 156: 5 158s and 6 170s.
When any of these will actually appear I know not.
K
The latest edition of Modern Railways says January for Scotrail cascade and first pacers going off lease. First 195s are apparently on course to enter service December and Manchester to Preston electrification should be complete then too but I would imagine Northern want the month overlap in case there are problems.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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That will be interesting because to do so would mean spending money painting them up in a TOCs livery that no longer exists!
I'd momentarily forgotten about the franchise change! I suppose just painting them in the new livery would work then, they'll just look like repainted 143s (hasn't one been done in the new livery?).
 

Cardiff123

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I'd momentarily forgotten about the franchise change! I suppose just painting them in the new livery would work then, they'll just look like repainted 143s (hasn't one been done in the new livery?).
143625 has had 'The start of a new journey' stickers plastered on it. Apart from that only 2 x 175s in the new TfW livery.
So just put similar stickers on the 144s, I honestly don't think seats matter. 144s don't have bus seats, some even have red seats so that's a TfW colour. They will be brought in as crowd busting relief trains for 12 months maximum, passengers don't care what colour seats are as long as they're comfortable (and they've got one, which at the moment on many TfW services they haven't)
 
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PHILIPE

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There is nothing mentioned from the TFW side about 144s, If any new stock during is mentioned through Twitter, they refer only to 769s. Things could change, though
 

geoffk

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The latest edition of Modern Railways says January for Scotrail cascade and first pacers going off lease. First 195s are apparently on course to enter service December and Manchester to Preston electrification should be complete then too but I would imagine Northern want the month overlap in case there are problems.
Will the 195s be going on to MIA - Barrow, releasing the two 185s back to TPE?
 

Cardiff123

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There is nothing mentioned from the TFW side about 144s, If any new stock during is mentioned through Twitter, they refer only to 769s. Things could change, though
I saw a tweet from TfW yesterday (in response to overcrowding) saying that they will be getting 'extra carriages early in 2019'. Northern Pacers weren't mentioned but they are the only place where these extra carriages could come from. 230s/769s/153s aren't arriving in service with TfW until May 2019 at the the earliest.
 
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Chester1

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Will the 195s be going on to MIA - Barrow, releasing the two 185s back to TPE?
I don't know but that would explain why TPE are definitely increasing turnaround times at the Airport by interworking Middlesbrough and Newcastle services. Those two units would be enough to do it with or without Mark V sets.
 

61653 HTAFC

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143625 has had 'The start of a new journey' stickers plastered on it. Apart from that only 2 x 175s in the new TfW livery.
So just put similar stickers on the 144s, I honestly don't think seats matter. 144s don't have bus seats, some even have red seats so that's a TfW colour. They will be brought in as crowd busting relief trains for 12 months maximum, passengers don't care what colour seats are as long as they're comfortable (and they've got one, which at the moment on many TfW services they haven't)
They're the ones owned by WYPTE so will be the last to leave Northern.
All 144’s are owned by Porterbrook now.
To clear up points in the above posts: all 144 vehicles have the Serco/Abellio dark blue interiors apart from 012. The only 144 vehicles that were ever owned by WYPTE were the centre cars in units 014-023, and as @Class37.4 says, they were sold to Porterbrook a while back now.

I can see the sense behind the idea of a short-term lease to TfW to allow more 15x units to be made 2020-proof, but the limitation then becomes the capacity within workshops to actually do the work.

If such a transfer were to occur, I can imagine complaints about receiving decrepit Northern cast-offs being a problem... but I also note that many "normals" don't notice if their train is a different colour or type, so whether a repaint would be worthwhile is open to interpretation.
 

Cardiff123

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To clear up points in the above posts: all 144 vehicles have the Serco/Abellio dark blue interiors apart from 012. The only 144 vehicles that were ever owned by WYPTE were the centre cars in units 014-023, and as @Class37.4 says, they were sold to Porterbrook a while back now.

I can see the sense behind the idea of a short-term lease to TfW to allow more 15x units to be made 2020-proof, but the limitation then becomes the capacity within workshops to actually do the work.

If such a transfer were to occur, I can imagine complaints about receiving decrepit Northern cast-offs being a problem... but I also note that many "normals" don't notice if their train is a different colour or type, so whether a repaint would be worthwhile is open to interpretation.
Right now the unit shortage in Wales is so severe, quite frankly a Merseytravel 142 turning up on the Valleys as strengthening would be a relief.
What's better? A single 2 car former ATW 142 that starts turning away passengers before it gets to Pontypridd in the morning peak, or an ATW 142 + Northern 144? Passengers atm just want seats.
 

js1000

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As we approach November are we any clearer which is the first to go
To be fair the franchise agreement is pretty open-ended and allows Arriva to operate the Pacers until the end of 2019. "The intention of the Franchisee" is more legally lighter than "The Franchisee is required". The phasing out schedule exists to encourage them to introduce rolling stock over 2018/19 rather than leave it to the last minute. Let's be honest: did anyone really expect the stubborn Pacers to depart on time considering their time was up 10-15 years ago? I didn't.

(a) The intention of the Franchisee (subject to paragraph (b)) below is that rolling stock will be returned to the lessor on the basis set out below.
(b) The Franchisee shall not return any rolling stock unit to the lessor or sub lease or hire it or otherwise take steps that render it unable to be used in the delivery of the Passenger Services until after any rolling stock unit that can be reasonably regarded as replacing it has been introduced into unrestricted use delivering the Passenger Services.
 

Coolzac

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In my view given the overcrowding that remains surely it makes sense for Northern in 2019 to keep running Pacers but on the shorter and less used lines, using the new arrivals on the busier and more 'intercity' style services. (A perfect example being using 2x142 pacers on the Esk Valley Line). I wonder if they will start removing them quickly in Jan 2019 or a very slow and steady basis....
 

Mogster

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With the amount of short forming that’s been going on between Manchester and Wigan for the last couple of weeks I’d question how they can justify removing anything that moves...
 

Jamesrob637

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In my view given the overcrowding that remains surely it makes sense for Northern in 2019 to keep running Pacers but on the shorter and less used lines, using the new arrivals on the busier and more 'intercity' style services. (A perfect example being using 2x142 pacers on the Esk Valley Line). I wonder if they will start removing them quickly in Jan 2019 or a very slow and steady basis....
Wish Northern thought as logically as you. Crowd-busters until next Xmas. Rather have a seat on a Pacer than nothing on a brand new train when I've paid my fare.
 

robbeech

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It has been said before and will be said many times again, there’s a strong argument to keep them to strengthen *some* services probably in the peaks or at weekends for special events. At least for a time until there is unquestionably enough new/replacement stock to retire these.
Unfortunately views differ somewhat and many feel that strengthening a compliant train with an extra couple of carriages of non compliant train is wholly unacceptable and people should be forced in like sardines or left behind instead. I appreciate there are significant operational considerations but there is no reason this couldn’t work on some services in the short term.
 

53703

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It has been said before and will be said many times again, there’s a strong argument to keep them to strengthen *some* services probably in the peaks or at weekends for special events. At least for a time until there is unquestionably enough new/replacement stock to retire these.
Unfortunately views differ somewhat and many feel that strengthening a compliant train with an extra couple of carriages of non compliant train is wholly unacceptable and people should be forced in like sardines or left behind instead. I appreciate there are significant operational considerations but there is no reason this couldn’t work on some services in the short term.
I agree. If a Pacer is attached to a compliant 150 for example surely that makes that service compliant? Or does every single carriage on the network need to have a load of seats taken out and a new toilet put in?
 

aformeruser

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I agree. If a Pacer is attached to a compliant 150 for example surely that makes that service compliant? Or does every single carriage on the network need to have a load of seats taken out and a new toilet put in?
No it doesn't. If you're a deaf passenger how doesn't regularly travel you know you have to board the 150 for visual announcements or how do staff spot deaf passengers to direct on the 150? Likewise if you're on crutches and you don't regularly travel but don't need the ramp putting down for you how do you know the toilet on the 142 would be impossible to use but there's an accessible one on the 150? In the case of the latter the Pacer could perhaps look slightly more attractive due to a double step rather than one big single step.
 
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Bikeman78

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No it doesn't. If you're a deaf passenger how doesn't regularly travel you know you have to board the 150 for visual announcements or how do staff spot deaf passengers to direct on the 150? Likewise if you're on crotches and you don't regularly travel but don't need the ramp putting down for you how do you know the toilet on the 142 would be impossible to use but there's an accessible one on the 150? In the case of the latter the Pacer could perhaps look slightly more attractive due to a double step rather than one big single step.
There seems to be an assumption that blind or deaf people are stupid. My grandmother knew a blind couple that travelled from Hainault to Reigate in the 1980s to visit her. Back then, many trains didn't have any public address system at all.

As for someone with limited mobility getting in the wrong unit, how is that any different to getting in the wrong door on the correct unit? You won't get a wheelchair down the aisle on most trains.
 

aformeruser

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There seems to be an assumption that blind or deaf people are stupid. My grandmother knew a blind couple that travelled from Hainault to Reigate in the 1980s to visit her. Back then, many trains didn't have any public address system at all.

As for someone with limited mobility getting in the wrong unit, how is that any different to getting in the wrong door on the correct unit? You won't get a wheelchair down the aisle on most trains.
Firstly, we're talking about meeting the new legal requirements not how intelligent passengers are. Deaf and hard of hearing passengers have to be provided with visual announcements by law from 1st Jan 2020 and Pacers don't facilitate that.

I wasn't talking about wheelchair users but someone on crutches who would be able to get on the train by themselves but probably wouldn't be able to use the broom cupboard style toilet on a Pacer. As wheelchair users are assisted by station staff they should be irrelevant - although knowing what Virgin platform staff at Stockport are like they'll probably load a wheelchair passenger on to the Pacer and not even at the right end.
 

Class37.4

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It has been said before and will be said many times again, there’s a strong argument to keep them to strengthen *some* services probably in the peaks or at weekends for special events. At least for a time until there is unquestionably enough new/replacement stock to retire these.
Unfortunately views differ somewhat and many feel that strengthening a compliant train with an extra couple of carriages of non compliant train is wholly unacceptable and people should be forced in like sardines or left behind instead. I appreciate there are significant operational considerations but there is no reason this couldn’t work on some services in the short term.
No there’s no argument for that these trains need to go end of!
 

robbeech

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No there’s no argument for that these trains need to go end of!
I can only assume you have to use them daily and can understand how that opinion may be formed. Of course I’d suspect that those who end up late home daily after being unable to board a train and then to be squashed in fairly unsafe environments might accept that a seat or at worst a not quite so squashed stand on a 142 to be better than missing their kids bed time.
 

61653 HTAFC

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On the other hand, if they're all kept until the last possible moment and withdrawn en-masse on new years eve 2019, that'll be a massive drop in capacity to absorb the next day...
 

Class37.4

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I can only assume you have to use them daily and can understand how that opinion may be formed. Of course I’d suspect that those who end up late home daily after being unable to board a train and then to be squashed in fairly unsafe environments might accept that a seat or at worst a not quite so squashed stand on a 142 to be better than missing their kids bed time.
Arriva have a plan for elimination of pacers and significant capacity increase from new and cascaded rolling stock and improved timetables. If capacity isn’t enough then it will have to be looked at however there is no reason to include pacers in that there is only one place they need to go and that’s the scrapper, personally I would like to see some blown up with maybe a raffle with a chance to press the detonator. Any attempts at preservation should be banned.
 

Cardiff123

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Arriva have a plan for elimination of pacers and significant capacity increase from new and cascaded rolling stock and improved timetables. If capacity isn’t enough then it will have to be looked at however there is no reason to include pacers in that there is only one place they need to go and that’s the scrapper, personally I would like to see some blown up with maybe a raffle with a chance to press the detonator. Any attempts at preservation should be banned.
Send the 144s down to south Wales in January 2019 first, then we'll blow them up for you in January 2020.
Thanks ;)
 

geoffk

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Would South Wales crews need training on a 144 or are they similar enough to a 143 above the floor?
 

Mogster

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If it’s a Pacer or not being able to board a full train then I’ll take the Pacer...

This morning the Southport to Alderley Edge was short formed again consisting of a 2 car 150. The crush was incredible by the time we got to Salford Crescent, at Deansgate the guard called a medical emergency as someone had collapsed... I got off there but according to RTT Eastbound was blocked for 40 minutes.

There does seem to be a serious stock shortage at the moment. Having used the 142s for 20 years though I fail to see how they have any redeeming features. They should be nuked from orbit... just to be sure...
 

61653 HTAFC

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Would South Wales crews need training on a 144 or are they similar enough to a 143 above the floor?
A driver I was chatting to a while back (anecdotal evidence here, of course) who was around when the 143s ran in the North East and later moved to Yorkshire and drove 144s, suggested there are a few minor differences which would require a conversion course lasting a few hours.

One of the classes has a slightly higher ride height than the other (can't recall which is which) so they might need gauge clearance.
 

Coolzac

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On the other hand, if they're all kept until the last possible moment and withdrawn en-masse on new years eve 2019, that'll be a massive drop in capacity to absorb the next day...
True. Maybe they could Cascade them out of service steadily in Autumn 2019. Whilst they are in reasonable working order and there is a shortage of rolling stock this to me makes the most sense?
 

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