Northern Rail Court Summons

[Boonaldo]

Hi All
Received a Court Summons charged under R.O.R.A SEC5.1 due to appear 3rd December. Landed on my lap Saturday 23rd November
Timeline of Events
At about 07:54 on the 27th June I approached my usual TVM to purchase a ticket for a return journey, catching the 07:56 train as I do day in day out.
However the machine had had a software upgrade and wasn't my usual 3 clicks and pay, and also it had some sort of error message flash across saying it couldn't find my journey.

This journey is probably the most common journey made in the mornings in that station so there must of been some sort of error - I had seen people walk away from the machine shaking their heads - but didn't know why. I couldn't purchase my ticket at that machine - there are other facilities available - but they are on the other side of the line and I didn't have the time to use them and catch the required train. So I hop on the train and try to get a ticket off the guard.

I speak to the guard whilst on the train and its moving and ask for a ticket - it comes to pay and the machine doesn't work, we try again and again the machine doesn't work, he gives me the receipt and says "the card reader signal usually drops on this bit of the route as its remote" take this to the ticket desk and get a ticket there. I have a picture of the receipt and it matches back to the date, card etc.

So I get to the destination station and go to the desk and ask for a ticket, at this point the RPO comes over to speak to me and ask me what station im travelling from etc etc and issues me with a penalty fare. I tell him I have tried to make 3 reasonable attempts to pay but have been unable to due to the TVM and the signal black spot on the route (which he admits does exist). Even so he gives me the fare and I walk away I sign it "not agreed" as I don't agree. All I want is a reasonable chance to pay for the fare I wanted, and so far I have been denied that.

I message Northern Customer Services the same day and ask them to check the TVM on the platform 1 side of the line and report back to me any findings. They respond and hour later saying they have checked and "The issue has now been resolved, if this happens again please let us know"

17th July : I appeal the penalty fare via the appeals service website within the 21 days, and have confirmation that the appeal was logged within the 21 days (Remember this bit). Any appeal that is logged does not have to be paid until the review

25th July: I receive a reminder letter from northern dated 22nd July chasing the 20 penalty fare - they have added another £15 on for "admin". I ignore it as as far as I am concerned I have appealed and do not know the outcome of the appeal.

7th August; the appeals service rejects my appeal and says I have to pay.

At this point I do not know if I have to pay the penalty fare of £20, or the £35 penalty plus admin fee, as according to the appeals service website - "Once the appeal is received by AS the notice is placed on hold" and paying the £20 according to Northern wouldn't satisfy the updated outstanding balance. I await for clarification from Northern.

23rd November - I receive the summons.

The papers say I am charged under sec5.1 of rora - do I have to satisfy only one of the criteria under sec 5.1 or all 3 ? as I gave my name and address.

One of the witness statements and the statement of fact say that the appeal was only sent at the same time as the reminder letter dated 22nd of July was sent. Implying that I appealed as a response to the reminder being sent. This is wrong. I appealed a full 5 days prior to the reminder being sent and within the 21 day appeal period allowed. If I had sent the appeal on the 22nd July like they allege, it would of been outside of the 21 day appeal period.

The other witness statement says that "if I state that a tvm is not working a telephone call is made to the supplier to establish if the machine is out of order" It doesn't say weather a phone call was made or not and neither does it disclose the results of any supposed conversation. They are only quoting policy. Not weather that policy was enacted. Whereas I can prove that I asked them to look at the machine and I can prove that they said to me "the problem is now fixed" meaning that there must of been something to fix in the first place - otherwise they would have said there isn't a problem ?!?!.

I am wondering weather I should write a grovel letter to northern and point out the admin errors, meaning I never had fair chance after appeal to pay the £20. Or shall I plead guilty with mitigating circumstances, or ask to be charged under the byelaws as a conviction will have serious effect on my job, or shall I go all out not guilty as I have made reasonable attempts to pay but have been thwarted by inoperative machinery in use by northern ??

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Fast lol.

 

[mikeg]

Rora 1889 requires intent to avoid payment. Whilst not intending to pay at one point and then paying when challenged can be a violation see Corbyn v. Saunders I think you have not demonstrated intent to avoid paying the fare. From what I have read I'd actually be tempted to instruct a solicitor and plead not guilty though I'd wait for the advice of others.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Sneaky moved by NR in my opinion; they are barred from bringing a prosecution under the bylaws or Section 5(3) of the RORA as the Penalty Fare was appealed. I think they are aware of this and are trying it on.

There are two points to consider:

1) It's not clear from the post if you gave your name and address to the RPI. I'm assuming that this is the case and that's why you received the Penalty Fare. If so, you've satisfied 5(1) by giving your name and address and the prosecution will fail.

2) Additionally, as mikeg says, there is the issue of intent. Your version of events shows that you tried to pay and were unable to. Again, the prosecution should fail unless they can show evidence to the contrary.

I would write to NR and make the points above, citing, though not producing the evidence that you have and ask them to withdraw the charge otherwise you will be pleading not guilty and taking the matter to trial.

 

[island]

Do you still have the card decline receipt? Do you still have the Twitter conversation log?

Have you since actually paid the fare for your journey?

 

[Boonaldo]

Do you still have the card decline receipt? Do you still have the Twitter conversation log?

Have you since actually paid the fare for your journey?

I still have the decline receipt and still have the conversation history yes. I knew they would try this so kept what i could

 

[island]

Have you at any point actually paid the fare due for your journey?

 

[Boonaldo]

I havent paid the outstanding fare no as i havent had the chance to.
If they offer me the chance to pay the outstanding balance then i will pay.

 

[Boonaldo]

Sneaky moved by NR in my opinion; they are barred from bringing a prosecution under the bylaws or Section 5(3) of the RORA as the Penalty Fare was appealed. I think they are aware of this and are trying it on.

There are two points to consider:

1) It's not clear from the post if you gave your name and address to the RPI. I'm assuming that this is the case and that's why you received the Penalty Fare. If so, you've satisfied 5(1) by giving your name and address and the prosecution will fail.

2) Additionally, as mikeg says, there is the issue of intent. Your version of events shows that you tried to pay and were unable to. Again, the prosecution should fail unless they can show evidence to the contrary.

I would write to NR and make the points above, citing, though not producing the evidence that you have and ask them to withdraw the charge otherwise you will be pleading not guilty and taking the matter to trial.

Hi.
I gave my name and address to the RPI. My id even had a different address but i explained i had moved and hadnt had chance to change my address on the i.d.

 

[island]

When you say you waited for clarification from Northern from the 7th of August, did you at any stage in the over three months since then try to follow up when you did not hear for them for some time?

 

[island]

The reason I’m asking all these questions is not to be awkward or accusatory, but because they are the questions and points Northern will make in court to try to convince the magistrates that you didn’t have an intention to pay the fare for your journey, which remains due irregardless of the Penalty Fare situation.

 

[Boonaldo]

Its fine.
I did not try to follow up.
I assumed the letter dated 22nd july was a mistake, i did not challenge the outcome of the appeal as i did not know that i could.
I simply awaited northern to send me an adjusted communication asking for the correct amount, as as it stood i was confused by their communication.
They allege they sent another letter dated 23rd August, but i did not receive this. And, reading the witness statement, appear to have not acknowledged the initial appeal, so can only assume it was a letter asking for a further amount probably now £50, as each communication appears to go up in 15 gbp increments.

 

[furlong]

When your appeal was rejected, did the letter of reply not tell you that you could make a further appeal? Find it and check whether you missed it, or whether this information was missing.

 

[Puffing Devil]

As Boonaldo gave his name and address to the RPI, I don't believe that there is the need to look at intent as he has satisfied the requirements of 5(1) of the RORA. I would be very interested to see NR try to argue against that in court. That is why it's worth writing to them to understand their rationale for bringing the case.

If it does go court they will have to declare their case as part of the pre-trial process and the evidence on which they rely.

 

[Puffing Devil]

When your appeal was rejected, did the letter of reply not tell you that you could make a further appeal? Find it and check whether you missed it, or whether this information was missing.

This could be important as the fare will still be due and you want to keep any additional charges to the minimum; there may also be something to be said about further appeals being denied.

 

[furlong]

In order to replace the Penalty Fare with a prosecution, the company should have discovered some new information relating to your culpability that was not known to it at the time the Penalty Fare was issued - otherwise you can also present legal arguments from that angle as to why the case should not go ahead.

 

[Boonaldo]

This could be important as the fare will still be due and you want to keep any additional charges to the minimum; there may also be something to be said about further appeals being denied.

Just read the appeals service response and no it only gives advice on how to pay, but doesnt give me an opportunity to appeal further.
Again no value is mentioned but due to NR errors the 20gbp penalty payment would not have satisfied the incident. So its only reasonable to assume they would see this and ask for the 20gbp to be paid. Not 35 or 50 as asdumed in the letter dated 23rd August, which i could ask for a copy of ??

 

[furlong]

8. Where an Appeal Panel notifies its decision not to allow an appeal under regulation 16 it must
provide the appellant with a statement that—
(a) the person has the right to appeal against the decision to the relevant Appeal Panel;
(b) that the appeal would be considered by a different person at the relevant Appeal Panel;
(c) if the appeal was unsuccessful the person would have the right to appeal to the relevant
Final Appeal Panel;

So was that requirement not met?

 

[Boonaldo]

So was that requirement not met?

No, just read the two pdf docs that they sent through and it doesnt say anything about that.
I thought i was right, i was amazed my appeal didnt win, as i tried to pay. I made multiple reasonable attempts to pay, and could evidence the failures that stopped me paying.
I paid a single ticket on the way home which is 8.20, the price of a return is 9.20, i always get a return so to put this right shall i offer a pound to settle it ? Or the penalty fare ?
As in my opinion i have not had the fair chance to pay either !

 

[furlong]

Also, note that the specific mention in the regulations is that prosecution under RORA 5(3)(a) and (b) is barred, not 5(1) - perhaps that is why they chose it! - but this doesn't prevent abuse of process arguments being presented as to why 5(1) shouldn't be allowed either, or an argument that there is no case to answer if the name and address were given.

 

[gray1404]

Did you initially refuse to give your name and address when asked? I do not think for one moment that you did, but I am really confused as to why Northern are taking this stance.

 

[Puffing Devil]

No, just read the two pdf docs that they sent through and it doesnt say anything about that.
I thought i was right, i was amazed my appeal didnt win, as i tried to pay. I made multiple reasonable attempts to pay, and could evidence the failures that stopped me paying.
I paid a single ticket on the way home which is 8.20, the price of a return is 9.20, i always get a return so to put this right shall i offer a pound to settle it ? Or the penalty fare ?
As in my opinion i have not had the fair chance to pay either !

It appears that you have a case for both the Penalty Fare and the Summons. Deal with the summons first by pointing out that you have met the requirments of Section 5(1) of the RORA and ask what their case will be.

Did you initially refuse to give your name and address when asked? I do not think for one moment that you did, but I am really confused as to why Northern are taking this stance.

This is a fair point and maybe the only hope that NR have, though weak as you did comply.

Once the Summons is dealt with you can tackle the Penalty Fare.

Also, note that the specific mention in the regulations is that prosecution under RORA 5(3)(a) and (b) is barred, not 5(1) - perhaps that is why they chose it! - but this doesn't prevent abuse of process arguments being presented as to why 5(1) shouldn't be allowed either, or an argument that there is no case to answer if the name and address were given.

I think this is exactly what I said in my first two posts.

 

[furlong]

Well it gets quite interesting, but you might want the help of a solicitor to navigate the maze.

If the appeal rejection notice did not comply, then you might argue that that means the appeals system the company has does not comply with the Regulations and therefore no Penalty Fare (within the meaning of the regulations) was ever issued - but this may mean they are no longer barred from prosecuting...

 

[some bloke]

Due to
a) lack of time
and
b) the fact that Boonaldo is clearly innocent under 5.1 if he simply gave them his name and address when requested,

might it be a good idea for him to phone the prosecution department tomorrow?

Boonaldo, phone calls can be riskier than communicating in writing in case the passenger blurts out the wrong thing, but in these circumstances you might feel confident that isn't a problem.

First it may be a good idea to consider this:

Did you initially refuse to give your name and address when asked? I do not think for one moment that you did, but I am really confused as to why Northern are taking this stance.

Would you like to post the appeals service response and your appeal letter in case someone on here can spot something (with identifying details removed)?

If by any chance you couldn't sort it out before court, you could go early, ask staff where the prosecutor is and make sure they understand you can't be guilty.

One of the witness statements and the statement of fact say that the appeal was only sent at the same time as the reminder letter dated 22nd of July was sent. Implying that I appealed as a response to the reminder being sent. This is wrong. I appealed a full 5 days prior to the reminder being sent and within the 21 day appeal period allowed. If I had sent the appeal on the 22nd July like they allege, it would of been outside of the 21 day appeal period.

You could tell them that on the phone or in an email as well.

 

[Boonaldo]

I did initially resist giving my name and addresss as i wanted to pay for my ticket, he pulled me away from the ticket lady as i had asked her for a ticket already.
I did give my name and address, i took a picture of the penalty notice he gave me and it has my address on it.

 

[some bloke]

Right, so you didn't fulfil the requirement of 5.1. Time for a rethink.

 

[Boonaldo]

I might already be on the system if they have one, but thats because they tried to fine me when i already had a ticket. That was quickly resolved however when i took a pic of the retained ticket and sent it in to them.

 

[Boonaldo]

Right, so you didn't fulfil the requirement of 5.1. Time for a rethink.

But i gave my name and address ?? I did question why they needed it but i did give it to them ??

 

[some bloke]

Could you describe the sequence of events - how long did you refuse for? It may still be that they've made an error.

 

[furlong]

If you pay your fare, which you were offering to do, the requirement to give name and address doesn't apply, so it's not unreasonable to challenge such a demand, before complying if they insist.

 

[some bloke]

If you pay your fare, which you were offering to do, the requirement to give name and address doesn't apply, so it's not unreasonable to challenge such a demand, before complying if they insist.

Does it make a difference that 5.1 is about paying if requested, whereas here it was his choice to try to pay?