Northern Rail Drivers Strike

[ANorthernGuard]

This has just been announced

Northern Rail Strike Ballot Result
YES 82.2%
NO 17.8%
Return 82%
Strike dates announced Fri 21/11 & Thu 27/11
Further dates to be advised.

High Turnout and High Yes vote

 

[Clip]

Thats a proper result there. Whats the issue again?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Thats a proper result there. Whats the issue again?

From what I can gather its the lowest pay rise offer and the fact that the Northern Drivers pay is no longer comparable with other Toc's Drivers Salary

 

[pemma]

Strike dates announced Fri 21/11 & Thu 27/11

I'm surprised they aren't planning to strike on Sat 30/11 opposed to Thu 27/11, given a pre-Christmas Saturday strike would likely cause a lot of disruption and likely cause more lost revenue for Northern, given a lot of Saturday passengers will not be season ticket holders.

 

[GB]

Would there not be less services to cover on a Saturday vs a weekday?

 

[WCMLaddict]

That is quite an astonishing support for the union!

I bet it would be a different result if it wasn't for the letter to staff from the HR Director that was supposed to convince people to vote against action and in fact made staff extremely militant against the senior management.

 

[trainophile]

Oh dear . I have an Advance ticket Southport to Hereford via MAN on 21st Nov. Will people affected by this be allowed to take alternate routes?

 

[jopsuk]

That's 67% of total membership in favour of action. that's an incredible result.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm surprised they aren't planning to strike on Sat 30/11 opposed to Thu 27/11, given a pre-Christmas Saturday strike would likely cause a lot of disruption and likely cause more lost revenue for Northern, given a lot of Saturday passengers will not be season ticket holders.

A Saturday strike would not be a popular one amongst travellers and businesses around Manchester (and other areas). Whilst on a weekday I suspect most people can still get to work by other means, on those Saturdays, the transport network around Manchester will be at breaking point with the railway running properly, nevermind if Northern drivers were on strike.

Yes, a strike is supposed to be disruptive, but it can go too far.

Would there not be less services to cover on a Saturday vs a weekday?

Most Northern timetables are Monday to Saturday (or pretty close to it).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh dear . I have an Advance ticket Southport to Hereford via MAN on 21st Nov. Will people affected by this be allowed to take alternate routes?

Probably, but you might not find out for certain until nearer the time.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yeah it's going to be a struggle for anyone to suggest that this one didn't get popular support of the staff!

A shame it's come to this as it makes everyone look bad at the end of the day but if they feel they have a grievance (and clearly they do!) then fair play to them for trying to get it sorted. Hopefully there will be some last minute negotiation that sees the strike called off!

 

[pemma]

Whilst on a weekday I suspect most people can still get to work by other means

Last time Northern threatened a strike on a working day (which got called off) someone I know who commutes between Frodsham and Knutsford by train looked at the alternative - instead of taking around 60 minutes using 2 trains it would have taken them 3 hours 15 using 3 buses. Not everyone works in central Manchester and enjoys the high frequency of buses that Greater Manchester does.

Yes, a strike is supposed to be disruptive, but it can go too far.

Making people do their Christmas shopping a week earlier or later is a step too far?

 

[Greenback]

Yeah it's going to be a struggle for anyone to suggest that this one didn't get popular support of the staff!

A shame it's come to this as it makes everyone look bad at the end of the day but if they feel they have a grievance (and clearly they do!) then fair play to them for trying to get it sorted. Hopefully there will be some last minute negotiation that sees the strike called off!

I hope that such a resounding vote for strike action will convince the official side to return to the negotiations and make a better offer.

 

[ainsworth74]

You would have thought so as it wouldn't appear divide and rule is going to work (and indeed may have backfired).

 

[pemma]

I hope that such a resounding vote for strike action will convince the official side to return to the negotiations and make a better offer.

Agreed. A lot of strikes get called off after further negotiations so let's hope that happens here.

 

[Greenback]

A vote to strike often convinces management that there is real opposition to something, rather than a lot of empty rhetoric from union reps at industrial relations meetings.

A big vote like this one should be an even stronger message. If management want to pick battles they can win without too much damage to the business, there will be easier ones than this one!

 

[WCMLaddict]

Since the ballot papers gone out, there have been further meetings about the deal and from what I understand Northern management did say that they will consider ASLEF's proposal.

That was before the votes were counted so now I think they have every reason to consider it very seriously.

 

[142094]

Any idea what the pay offer was? Heard it was around the 2.5/2.7% area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any idea what the pay offer was? Heard it was around the 2.5/2.7% area.

Just found it, 2.7% this year and 2.5% or RPI next year (whichever is the highest).

 

[pemma]

Northern's response is

“We are disappointed that ASLEF Northern members have voted in favour of strike action despite receiving a very good pay offer of 2.7% in 2014 and 2.5% or RPI if it is higher in 2015.

We are in continuing discussions with ASLEF and have already planned to meet next week in the hope of resolving the situation."

http://www.northernrail.org/news/7542

 

[Carlisle]

Since the ballot papers gone out, there have been further meetings about the deal and from what I understand Northern management did say that they will consider ASLEF's proposal.

That was before the votes were counted so now I think they have every reason to consider it very seriously.

It's been said on this forum previously (if true) that Northern drivers get paid more than Southeastern drivers do where the cost of living in higher and a fair number of their trains are DOO

 

[bnm]

A big vote like this one should be an even stronger message. If management want to pick battles they can win without too much damage to the business, there will be easier ones than this one!

So Northern Rail should cave in and increase the current offer which is already more than twice the current rate of inflation? A further increase, if given, will put pressure on other costs to the business. If Northern Rail do accede to the ASLEF demands then expect further cost cutting elsewhere. More agency staff, more DOO, cleaning pared back, bare minimum maintenance... Not to forget that Northern Rail receive the highest subsidy per passenger mile, so Government will be watching closely to ensure Northern Rail are doing all in their power to provide value for that taxpayer contribution. A profligate pay award may not go down well with Govt.

In the current economic climate 2.7% seems very generous.

Does anyone know what percentage the drivers are after?

 

[pemma]

It's been said on this forum previously (if true) that Northern drivers get paid more than Southeastern drivers do where the cost of living in higher and a fair number of their trains are DOO

It's actually on the ASLEF website: http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/nrail/

 

[bnm]

It's been said on this forum previously (if true) that Northern drivers get paid more than Southeastern drivers do where the cost of living in higher and a fair number of their trains are DOO

Yep. Southeastern £43,391. Northern £44,197. Tabled award that is being refused leading to the strike action would take Northern drivers to £45,390 basic. Figures from ASLEF.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Last time Northern threatened a strike on a working day (which got called off) someone I know who commutes between Frodsham and Knutsford by train looked at the alternative - instead of taking around 60 minutes using 2 trains it would have taken them 3 hours 15 using 3 buses. Not everyone works in central Manchester and enjoys the high frequency of buses that Greater Manchester does.....

Fair point, but, in fairness, I stopped short of saying everyone had other options.

....Making people do their Christmas shopping a week earlier or later is a step too far?

You've clearly never seen Saturdays in Manchester on the run up to Christmas. I understand that some other areas are as bad for train capacity because of the other markets across the Northern network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yep. Southeastern £43,391. Northern £44,197. Tabled award that is being refused leading to the strike action would take Northern drivers to £45,390 basic. Figures from ASLEF.

Former ATN Drivers get more than SouthEastern because they gave up several Conditions and benefits to get it. Former FNW Drivers get around £41,000 IIRC.

 

[Greenback]

So Northern Rail should cave in and increase the current offer which is already more than twice the current rate of inflation? A further increase, if given, will put pressure on other costs to the business. If Northern Rail do accede to the ASLEF demands then expect further cost cutting elsewhere. More agency staff, more DOO, cleaning pared back, bare minimum maintenance... Not to forget that Northern Rail receive the highest subsidy per passenger mile, so Government will be watching closely to ensure Northern Rail are doing all in their power to provide value for that taxpayer contribution. A profligate pay award may not go down well with Govt.

In the current economic climate 2.7% seems very generous.

Does anyone know what percentage the drivers are after?

That's obviously a decision for them to make based on what they think they damage will be to their finances form a strike or series of strikes against what any higher offer will cost them.

What I'm saying is this should focus their minds on trying to find a solution rather than sitting back and hoping that a) the drivers don't want to take any action and b) support will be so low that the action will have little or no effect.

I make no comment on the actual offer except to agree that 2.7% is very generous compared to what I've received over the past five years. But I suspect that the drivers won;t see that as being very relevant, and I tend to agree with them on that.

 

[pemma]

You've clearly never seen Saturdays in Manchester on the run up to Christmas. I understand that some other areas are as bad for train capacity because of the other markets across the Northern network.

I know what train services are like, but you were saying people would use the buses instead and put them are bursting point. Would people really want to make a 50 minute trip by bus in to Manchester when if they wait until the following Saturday they could make a 25 minute trip by train?

 

[Robertj21a]

So Northern Rail should cave in and increase the current offer which is already more than twice the current rate of inflation? A further increase, if given, will put pressure on other costs to the business. If Northern Rail do accede to the ASLEF demands then expect further cost cutting elsewhere. More agency staff, more DOO, cleaning pared back, bare minimum maintenance... Not to forget that Northern Rail receive the highest subsidy per passenger mile, so Government will be watching closely to ensure Northern Rail are doing all in their power to provide value for that taxpayer contribution. A profligate pay award may not go down well with Govt.

In the current economic climate 2.7% seems very generous.

Does anyone know what percentage the drivers are after?

So they're being offered 2.7% this year, 2.5% (or RPI) next year - and they've turned it down with a massive vote in favour of strike action ?

Are these guys just crazy, greedy, selfish or living in ga-ga land ?

No wonder mangers despair.

 

[ComUtoR]

Are these guys just crazy, greedy, selfish or living in ga-ga land ?

No wonder mangers despair.

What else is on the table ? Its never just about the money. Before any stones are thrown. If they believe they are worth the money they should be allowed to fight for every penny. Why settle for less ? What happens next year or the year after ?

 

[8J]

The ex FNW drivers (west side) are the second lowest paid drivers in the countr after the west Anglian drivers for GA (and the SWT Island line). The main issue is that their pay rates are not comparable to other tocs anymore who have better trains, less stops, less routes to learn, better conditions and less patronising letters from wise men in HR...

I'm not a driver, but seeing that the likes of TPE, XC, Virgin, EMT, ATW and even Merseyrail who have a very basic network earning significant amounts more than ex FNW makes me want to support the west side drivers.

 

[Andyh82]

If you put all the TOCs in order, I'd expect Northern drivers to be paid the lowest to be honest. Factor in the lower wages in the north, the lack of intercity work, the low profile lower speed work etc. You'd probably expect Arriva Trains Wales and Scotrail to be similar. I'd assume Virgin Trains and East Coast would get the most.

 

[Wolfie]

I hope that such a resounding vote for strike action will convince the official side to return to the negotiations and make a better offer.

I agree, just as long as all of the Northern fans on here don't come asking for even MORE subsidy!