Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

Its faster than a HST!

I was on a Northern Pacer last week which left Lime St just as a Pendolino was also leaving (both under green signals).
We had stopped at Edge Hill and got the right away before the Pendolino went through.
So Pacers are quicker than Pendolinos!
Actually, on that stretch the Up Slow which we were on has a faster line speed (40mph) up the bank than all the other lines (30mph).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It makes more sense to me if both franchises ran services on Manchester - Blackpool/Barrow Windermere services creating true competition with each other, which would bring reduced fares, faster services, more reliable services, and better quality trains

Both franchises run service from Manchester to Blackpool now, and there is no competition as such. You can choose between overcrowded new trains and overcrowded old trains.

Makes no sense at all. The competitor worth going for is the car.

Neil

 

[Bright Boy]

Both franchises run service from Manchester to Blackpool now, and there is no competition as such. You can choose between overcrowded new trains and overcrowded old trains.

Makes no sense at all. The competitor worth going for is the car.

Neil

Yeah lets close all the railways:roll:

When the roads are blocked completely you can get out your pushbike, at least it will be cheaper and better for the environment

 

[Aldaniti]

I wouldn't dream of using Northern Rail unless I was desperate. Replacing 2+3 diesels with 2+3 electrics will not tempt me out of my car. On the other hand, there are some journeys where I wouldn't think of driving. From the North West to London for example. Sadly, Virgin know this and turn me upside down to empty my pockets every time I want to do so.

 

[northwichcat]

Replacing 2+3 diesels with 2+3 electrics will not tempt me out of my car.

Actually it's replacing 2+3 and 2+2 diesels with 2+3 electrics.

 

[Aldaniti]

Actually it's replacing 2+3 and 2+2 diesels with 2+3 electrics.

Indeed, if only my local routes featured doubled-up 156 sets, which I find quite acceptable for fairly short journeys of around 20 miles, I'd probably use the service.

 

[Bright Boy]

I am not very happy with the service Northern provide either, I use them regularly as I live in their area (I have many gripes), however some of the problems with their service is not all down to them, for example they inherited the pacers and sprinters of which you speak, on the other side of the coin I believe they could have made more of an effort to get better trains.

But rather than condemning them I would rather try to encourage them to improve their services.

If you compare Northern with other rail franchises, I suppose they do not come out well, but not the worst in my opinion. All the passenger rail companies have faults, some more, some less.

In my area we have TPX who I believe do provide a better service, Virgin (ditto), Cross Country (similar), Arriva Wales are not too bad, but the worst in my opinion is EMT, not for their trains (mostly 158's which are ok), but for their customer service which is rather poor from my experiences travelling with them, how they got passenger train company of the year eludes me:roll:.

Further afield I have not travelled enough on other companies services in which to formulate a balanced opinion, but from what I have experienced I enjoyed travelling on SWT and Scotrail, London Midland left something to desire, every time I travelled on locals in the West Midlands the trains were always rather dirty, same for the Cross Country midlands services, down to the local staff I suppose?

So for me anything to improve our rail services is welcome news, even with Northern, and I would sooner travel on trains around the North West (even with Northern) than drive, especially now in winter when the roads are a complete nightmare!

Edit :- I have just seen (from a post on a different thread in this section of the forum) that Northern 144's picked up the most reliable pacer in the country:roll:

 

[childwallblues]

I use the LIV-MCV line quite often in the morning peak. Even on a Pacer I enjoy going past lines of stopped cars on the M602 whilst we trundle along at 50mph.

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed, if only my local routes featured doubled-up 156 sets, which I find quite acceptable for fairly short journeys of around 20 miles, I'd probably use the service.

There's a risk of 319s replacing 185s on certain services as well.

 

[edwin_m]

In the short term 319s will only be replacing 14x Pacers and 15x Sprinters on runs such as Liverpool to Manchester Airport. There will still be faster TPE or EMT services using more comfortable rolling stock on these routes, although using them might involve an extra change of train.

Any transfer of routes between Northern and TPE will be in the new franchises, or even later as it may take some time to work out and agree the timetables and diagrams. It is up to bidders to decide what to propose, and this might include 319s or other units possibly refurbished to a higher standard than the quick refresh they are receiving now. For electrified routes such as Blackpool and Windermere, where the Northern successor probably takes over from the TPE successor, there may be a case for creating a sub-fleet with lower density interiors and perhaps even air conditioning. This assumes the successor can keep the sub-fleets on the correct diagrams - something Northern hasn't been particularly good at in the past.

 

[northwichcat]

In the short term 319s will only be replacing 14x Pacers and 15x Sprinters on runs such as Liverpool to Manchester Airport. There will still be faster TPE or EMT services using more comfortable rolling stock on these routes, although using them might involve an extra change of train.

At the moment the Liverpool-Manchester Airport service is similar in timings to Liverpool-Norwich or Liverpool-Scarborough between Liverpool and Manchester but the Northern service is less popular with passengers.

Any transfer of routes between Northern and TPE will be in the new franchises, or even later as it may take some time to work out and agree the timetables and diagrams.

Using current time scales Preston-Blackpool North is to be closed for 3 months from December 2016 and once it re-opens Manchester Airport to Blackpool is expected to be fully electrified. December 2016 is also when 5 x 185s are expected to transfer to North TPE (TPE have submitted a track application for enhanced services from December 2016 under DfT's request.)

So something is needed to replace 185s on Manchester Airport to Preston/Blackpool from December 2016 and the route is set to transfer to Northern. Any order of new EMUs can't be delivered between the franchise being awarded and December 2016, so what stock could the Northern franchise acquire for that? 319s appear to be the only option at present.

 

[samuelmorris]

I use the LIV-MCV line quite often in the morning peak. Even on a Pacer I enjoy going past lines of stopped cars on the M602 whilst we trundle along at 50mph.

This is perhaps a point I think many people overlook. Even if the trains are old, overcrowded and potentially dirty, I would still much rather use the train to get to a lot of places. On a few occasions me and my boss will head out to see a client, me on the train and he will drive. Almost without fail I get there before him, in some cases I actually got there, finished the job and headed home while he was still stationary on the M3, and had to end up turning back. (This despite a fallen tree on the line at Brookwood as I recall?)

 

[Tetchytyke]

some of the problems with their service is not all down to them, for example they inherited the pacers and sprinters of which you speak, on the other side of the coin I believe they could have made more of an effort to get better trains.

Probably slightly off-topic, but the state of the trains IS down to them. Other TOCs have refurbished similar trains and you wouldn't know they were old. Northern have done next to nothing internally with these trains, and then have the cheek to call a new seat cover a "refurbishment". The interiors of their 156s haven't been touched since Northern Sprit refurbished them almost 20 years ago.

The 319s are good trains but they need a proper refurbishment. Instead they've been given a bit of paint and some new seat covers, and they expect us to be wowed. The refreshment makes the 319 look a bit cleaner, I'll give them that, but it's a shame everything with Northern is always so low-rent.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's also the possibility that TPE will use 319s and Northern use cascaded 185s, irrespective of franchise boundaries.
TPE may not have enough work for 185s when TP North and Blackpool are wired.
There's nothing to stop the 185 fleet being split or sublet (still using Ardwick), much like VT and XC use a common Voyager fleet maintained at one site.
I think there's a high chance of 319s being used on the Blackpool and Selby routes, whoever operates them.
We might also get two refits of the 319s - one metro and the other regional.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably slightly off-topic, but the state of the trains IS down to them. Other TOCs have refurbished similar trains and you wouldn't know they were old. Northern have done next to nothing internally with these trains, and then have the cheek to call a new seat cover a "refurbishment".

They're calling it a "refresh", aren't they?

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

They're calling it a refurbishment.

 

[northwichcat]

They're calling it a refurbishment.

The impression that gives is the trains arrived in this condition:
http://www.northernrail.org/images/news/northern_class_319-4.jpg
http://www.northernrail.org/images/news/northern_class_319-6.jpg

 

[Starmill]

I'll reserve judgment until I have been on it, but to me, refurbishment must have replacement of seats (not just covers - have they replaced the cushions?), carpets and tables. The train must look internally new. The technical changes will be specified by their new working requirements, any accessibility regulations not met must be, and of course anything that's broken must be fixed, preferably for the long term. It will usually involve a new livery. This refreshment meets most of these requirements. What they need in the new franchise are replacement seats, in 2+2 and with some tables. They might also need luggage provision looking at again. Carpet is almost always preferable to plastic. But it could have been a lot worse.

The one thing that I think the 319s should get that hasn't been mentioned is air conditioning, but IMHO fitting that is slightly beyond a refurbishment, as the class 321 demonstrator has shown (and is it the 317 demo that has 'air cooling?' cos that's usually a waste of time too!).

 

[northwichcat]

I'll reserve judgment until I have been on it, but to me, refurbishment must have replacement of seats (not just covers - have they replaced the cushions?),

Well when they had class 150 seats in the same condition it was described as "seats sent away for a complete reupholster"

http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2014/10/24/our-visit-to-newton-heath-depot/

 

[Class377/5]

I'll reserve judgment until I have been on it, but to me, refurbishment must have replacement of seats (not just covers - have they replaced the cushions?), carpets and tables. The train must look internally new. The technical changes will be specified by their new working requirements, any accessibility regulations not met must be, and of course anything that's broken must be fixed, preferably for the long term. It will usually involve a new livery. This refreshment meets most of these requirements. What they need in the new franchise are replacement seats, in 2+2 and with some tables. They might also need luggage provision looking at again. Carpet is almost always preferable to plastic. But it could have been a lot worse.

The one thing that I think the 319s should get that hasn't been mentioned is air conditioning, but IMHO fitting that is slightly beyond a refurbishment, as the class 321 demonstrator has shown (and is it the 317 demo that has 'air cooling?' cos that's usually a waste of time too!).

Air con is something left for the next franchise.

 

[tom1649]

I prefer the old seats. Modern ones are too high backed for my liking.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The one thing that I think the 319s should get that hasn't been mentioned is air conditioning

The 319s have good big opening windows and, to be honest, they're probably more effective than air conditioning.

 

[northwichcat]

The 319s have good big opening windows and, to be honest, they're probably more effective than air conditioning.

Trouble is that makes the train noisy in summer and if you're trying to sell in electric trains as being quiet opening windows don't help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trouble is that makes the train noisy in summer and if you're trying to sell in electric trains as being quiet opening windows don't help.

With no aircon fans etc, enjoy the silence while the 319 driving trailers are stationary. 319s, like 321s, are nice, quiet units. Even with the windows open.

Neil

 

[Class377/5]

The 319s have good big opening windows and, to be honest, they're probably more effective than air conditioning.

Opening windows doesn't come close to air con for temperature control.

Trouble is that makes the train noisy in summer and if you're trying to sell in electric trains as being quiet opening windows don't help.

Especially in tunnels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Opening windows doesn't come close to air con for temperature control.

When it works.

I would rather have opening windows than the often non-functioning "aircon" of any DMU built before the Class 170, unless like Chiltern's it has had a completely new system fitted.

By contrast, I suppose, a Class 350 is a joy on a hot summer's day.

Neil

 

[samuelmorris]

Boarding a pleasantly cool 357 or 360 when it's hot out is very welcoming, I have to admit, and you certainly get a shock when you get off and realise how much warmer it is on the outside. The concept of a 321 being 'quiet' though is laughable - air conditioning on the 350s/360s is as noisy as it gets yet they're far quieter units to travel on because apart from the much reduced rail/track joint noise coming through, you don't get the reflection of noise in tunnels - travelling on a 319 through Balcombe tunnel at 90-odd mph with the windows open in summer is practically deafening if you're in or near the power car, and on 321s with the windows open, the crawl out of Liverpool Street complete with flange squeal reflected against the wall beside the train is wince-inducing as well. I appreciate that those EMUs when lightly loaded (i.e. nobody talking) and stationary are eerily silent, but moments of silence interspersing the racket they make otherwise does not make them quiet trains, sorry! This is why I'm fairly happy with the demonstrator version, door noise excluding it's still a lot quieter than its brethren.

 

[Class 170101]

There's nothing to stop the 185 fleet being split or sublet (still using Ardwick), much like VT and XC use a common Voyager fleet maintained at one site.

Except it will most likely create inefficiencies and require more trains to operate the same service.

It will be better if possible to keep the 319s as a single fleet with a single operator and the same for the 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

It will be better if possible to keep the 319s as a single fleet with a single operator and the same for the 185s.

319s aren't such a small fleet that keeping them all together is essential. If they all went to Northern it's likely they would be split between multiple depots for maintenance, in the same way the 142s are currently.

185s are a bit different due to a smaller number and the designated Siemens maintenance facility at Ardwick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Especially in tunnels.

Yes. Another issue with longer tunnels is the temperature can be very low even in the middle of Summer so with open windows you can have warm air blowing in to the train one minute then very cold air the next.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By contrast, I suppose, a Class 350 is a joy on a hot summer's day.

My first journey on a 185 was during a heatwave in 2006 so it was near 30oC outside but around 20oC on the train, which felt like a massive difference.

 

[physics34]

I prefer the old seats. Modern ones are too high backed for my liking.

i wouldnt be surprised if Health and Safety havent got a hand in this.

You would assume high back seating is safer than low back.