Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Tetchytyke]

The 319s are rubbish, but they're less rubbish than 142s and 150s. They're more suited to this work than the 156s, too; getting off a peak-time 156, with the tiny single-leaf door, is not an entertaining way to spend a morning.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sorry but I think that's just excessive moaning, we all know that there are loads of services all over the country with real overcrowding issue's, and this will bring significant improvements even if some of it is delayed until September, and yes I know what's like to travel on severely overcrowded services I used to commute between Sheffield and Manchester before EMT managed to get 4 car trains on that section.

And how would you have felt if EMT had delayed strengthening that service because another operator had got their paws on the 158s leaving EMT with less in the short term?

The situation with TPX is unfortunate but overall it seems to be about the best available other than actually stopping Chiltern from having the 170's.

The best solution would have been for the Southern enhancements to have gone ahead at the December 2016 timetable change (as planned) and for TPE to have subleased the 4 x 3 car 170s Southern had secured until the end of the current franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And how would you have felt if EMT had delayed strengthening that service because another operator had got their paws on the 158s leaving EMT with less in the short term?

Bearing in mind that that route has had a problem since at least 1997 on certain trains (except for the short period when Central Trains used 3-car 170s) it would probably not be an absolute disaster.

Neil
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The 319s are rubbish, but they're less rubbish than 142s and 150s. They're more suited to this work than the 156s, too; getting off a peak-time 156, with the tiny single-leaf door, is not an entertaining way to spend a morning.

Indeed, 156s are more suited to inter-regional or rural work than commuter work.

It would be nice to reseat the 319s to 2+2 with tables, and that may well happen in due course, just not yet.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Oh yes, I think that point has sometimes been missed on here, among all the North-South mud-slinging which I don't really want to get involved in or take sides. The reason the 319s are being replaced on Thameslink is so that CAPACITY can be increased and NOT because they are seen as worn out/life expired/knackered etc. Lets hope that they help to grow the traffic in the North where demand has been suppressed by much worse rolling stock.

Agreed the 319s are not life expired and they aren't worse than 142s or 150s. However, they are the oldest EMUs in the Northern fleet and will be coming towards the ends of their lives by the time the next Northern franchise ends.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed the 319s are not life expired and they aren't worse than 142s or 150s. However, they are the oldest EMUs in the Northern fleet and will be coming towards the ends of their lives by the time the next Northern franchise ends.

EMUs can last far longer than DMUs, because they aren't permanently shaking themselves to bits, so this is not a given. Hamburg were operating pre-war S-Bahn EMUs until 2000, for instance.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Bearing in mind that that route has had a problem since at least 1997 on certain trains (except for the short period when Central Trains used 3-car 170s) it would probably not be an absolute disaster.

I think you've forgotten a couple of things:

1. CT used formations of 2, 3, 4 and 5 cars on Liverpool-Norwich. Towards the end of the CT franchise a 2 car 158 on Liverpool-Norwich was a rare site.

2. As well as not getting the Turbostars EMT also were made to switch the 8 class 158 centre cars for 153s.

However, this doesn't have any relevance to 319s!
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EMUs can last far longer than DMUs, because they aren't permanently shaking themselves to bits, so this is not a given. Hamburg were operating pre-war S-Bahn EMUs until 2000, for instance.

Electric traction is supposed to have an approx. 35-40 year life expectancy meaning the 319s should be due to be replaced between 2022 and 2030 - so during the Northern franchise after the next one.

The Island Line trains on the Isle of Wight date from the 1930s but have had significant work done to them and are limited to 45mph (less than half the speed of a 319)

 

[nw-sparks]

Last night there was an Allerton to Stockport VSTP schedule for an EMU. It ran but I don't know what unit.

Tonight there's a similar one Allerton to Preston.

I presume these are the staff training units for Manchester and Wigan crews, respectively.

Phil

 

[Geeves]

Had a ride on from the airport to NLW last night, cant see where the constant moaning they are too slow came from! I came back on a 156, now that was slow!!

Im unsure of the number but there is a Thameslink liveried 319 currently taking residence in Stockport sidings today. So it did make it there NW Sparks. This is for the Vic crews to learn on. The Wiganers get their own unit based out of Preston sidings.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Last night there was an Allerton to Stockport VSTP schedule for an EMU. It ran but I don't know what unit.
Tonight there's a similar one Allerton to Preston.

I presume these are the staff training units for Wigan and Manchester crews.

Phil

319379 for driver training. A 319 is due to go to Preston for Wigan crews to train on.

 

[po8crg]

I challenge you to travel on the 07:17 Manchester-Chester service everyday between now and the autumn.

Services into Manchester from Chester were operated by three-car 175s when I was using them ten years ago - and they were seats-full from Warrington Bank Quay and crush-loaded from Newton-le-Willows.

 

[samuelmorris]

A mix of comments have appeared on Twitter this morning regarding the 319 introduction on Liverpool-Man Airport. Some people are commenting on the smooth journey, others are saying they don't see what the big fuss is about.

I assume the latter are the people sat in the power car then

I imagine how long the 319s will stay depends on how successful the replacement of all the old DMUs is. Unless they start suffering severe reliability issues later in life, there's very little excuse to scrap any of them before pretty much all of the Sprinters are gone aside from the 158s. By that measure, I can see them being around longer than 2022-2025 as the 35-year 'life expectancy' would suggest. Frankly I'd be surprised if any had gone before 2030.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Services into Manchester from Chester were operated by three-car 175s when I was using them ten years ago - and they were seats-full from Warrington Bank Quay and crush-loaded from Newton-le-Willows.

The North Wales line (through Chester and Warrington) is operated by a mix of two and three car 175s, a loco hauled rake, two car 158s (sometimes in multiple) and the occasional 150 (when things are a bit desperate). The 0717 is a Northern all stations service via Stockport and Altrincham.

 

[northwichcat]

I imagine how long the 319s will stay depends on how successful the replacement of all the old DMUs is. Unless they start suffering severe reliability issues later in life, there's very little excuse to scrap any of them before pretty much all of the Sprinters are gone aside from the 158s. By that measure, I can see them being around longer than 2022-2025 as the 35-year 'life expectancy' would suggest. Frankly I'd be surprised if any had gone before 2030.

I think it'll also partly depend what's required in the future.

The 319s are being removed from Thameslink because they are no longer suitable. They aren't tailor made for the North West so have cons as well as pros, at the moment the pros outweigh the cons but in 10 years time that may change.

What'll be interesting is CP6. Northern are set to introduce new self-powered trains before 2020, those brand new trains could finish up being replaced by 319s on some lines as more lines get electrified. If that starts to happen the 319s may become very unpopular trains in the North. While people argue electric trains provide smooth, quiet journeys - many modern DMUs in Europe provide that, so the new Northern self-powered trains will hopefully provide that.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Services into Manchester from Chester were operated by three-car 175s when I was using them ten years ago - and they were seats-full from Warrington Bank Quay and crush-loaded from Newton-le-Willows.

The two peak trains via WBQ are now usually a 4 car 158 and a 67/DVT with a four carriage rake. Still standing though from Runcorn East.

 

[AM9]

The 319s are rubbish, but they're less rubbish than 142s and 150s. They're more suited to this work than the 156s, too; getting off a peak-time 156, with the tiny single-leaf door, is not an entertaining way to spend a morning.

It seems that some here want train travel to be a an efficient way to get from A to B. The fact that these trains will be full of other like-minded passengers means that the train must be designed for maximum bodies and minimum entrance and exit times.
A few others speak as though having a deep comfortable seat (in 2x2 configuration of course) with armrests, tables, seats that line up with windows, power points, et al. is all that matters. They don't seem to care how long it takes the train to cover the route, (slow diesel-powered, long dwells, far too many standees for the available space etc.). I imagine that they get their seats in the morning and the train fills up later in the journey.
The 319s are undoubtedly more efficient people-carriers than what has been in use until now. I believe that the majority of users will see them as a great improvement and the moaners will just - well, carry on moaning. The 319s aren't the oldest stock in the North-west, they are younger than 142s, 150s, 156s, 508s, etc.. They will probably carry on until the late '20s unless there is a major reliability issue. Their shells are MKIII, which have been described as the best coach shell design on UK railways so they have crash resistance that is acceptable 30 years after built. Commuter trains are workhorses, not gin-palaces with flanges wheels, misguided Thameslink regulars will realise this in three years.
With the later electrification schemes completed, there will be quite a population of 319s in the NW giving the TOC benefits only achievable with scale. Firstly, they will be less likely to be sent elsewhere, and secondly, when they are replaced, the numbers involved will justify a complete update programme, probably new build, (or maybe all the 365/465s which will be ready for replacement in the South-east just joking).

 

[47802]

I think it'll also partly depend what's required in the future.

The 319s are being removed from Thameslink because they are no longer suitable. They aren't tailor made for the North West so have cons as well as pros, at the moment the pros outweigh the cons but in 10 years time that may change.

What'll be interesting is CP6. Northern are set to introduce new self-powered trains before 2020, those brand new trains could finish up being replaced by 319s on some lines as more lines get electrified. If that starts to happen the 319s may become very unpopular trains in the North. While people argue electric trains provide smooth, quiet journeys - many modern DMUs in Europe provide that, so the new Northern self-powered trains will hopefully provide that.

Well CP6 is a fair way off and the way the current electrification is going I wouldn't be surprised to see most of what was originally proposed for CP5 taking both CP5 and CP6, add to which of course we are unlikely to have a Con/Lib Government in a few months time.

 

[northwichcat]

Well CP6 is a fair way off and the way the current electrification is going I wouldn't be surprised to see most of what was originally proposed for CP5 taking both CP5 and CP6, add to which of course we are unlikely to have a Con/Lib Government in a few months time.

Well yes we're only starting to see electrification schemes announced by Lord Adonis start to be completed, 5 years after Labour were voted out. However, electrification delays doesn't prevent the possibility of EMUs from the late 80s/early 90s replacing brand new DMUs.

 

[po8crg]

The two peak trains via WBQ are now usually a 4 car 158 and a 67/DVT with a four carriage rake. Still standing though from Runcorn East.

Yeah, I'm not surprised to find they're even busier, given the growth in rail travel over the last decade or so.

Newton-le-Willows could do with more parking - it's the main constraint on passenger growth there, as it picks up commuters from miles around.

While I'm on NLW, it was electrified in 1973, and the first electric passenger train to stop there was yesterday. Is that a record?

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern MD in Rail saying they have deployment plans for 8 319's. Two later three on Liverpool-Man Airport and five on Wigan services. They are also looking to freight yards to stable and perform light maintenance on 319's away from the depot. They have arrangements in place for Blackpool and are looking at overnight stabling in Wigan with Springs Branch 'one option'.

 

[fowler9]

Had my first trip to the airport and back on 319363 today (With a break of a couple of hours watching planes). They are a hell of an improvement, perhaps not on the airport run but once people living on the Wigan and Man Vic routes try them out they will notice the difference. One thing I found bizarre was that they aren't exactly that quiet which is a big selling point some people have focused on.

 

[samuelmorris]

I would never have advertised them as quiet, certainly not compared to more modern EMUs, but still an improvement on a DMU in that regard

 

[richa2002]

Had my first trip to the airport and back on 319363 today (With a break of a couple of hours watching planes). They are a hell of an improvement, perhaps not on the airport run but once people living on the Wigan and Man Vic routes try them out they will notice the difference. One thing I found bizarre was that they aren't exactly that quiet which is a big selling point some people have focused on.

It depends where you sit. If you're in the driving trailer you can have a very pleasant quiet journey but naturally if you're in the pantograph coach, a racket is made from the motors, especially if the windows are open.

A massive improvement in general ambience to a DMU though in my opinion. You northerners are lucky to have them.

 

[ianhr]

Had my first trip to the airport and back on 319363 today (With a break of a couple of hours watching planes). They are a hell of an improvement, perhaps not on the airport run but once people living on the Wigan and Man Vic routes try them out they will notice the difference. One thing I found bizarre was that they aren't exactly that quiet which is a big selling point some people have focused on.

Like you I tried them out today and was impressed with the performance which seemed to be outpacing even the newer DMUs. The 12.15 left Lime Street immediately behind the 12.12 TPE 185 to Newcastle and despite the TPE train being booked as non stop we were constantly being signal checked behind it to Wavertree. A really exhilarating flight through Broad Green to Huyton Quarry then checks all the way to St Helens Jct, presumably catching up the 185 drifting along on half power to the slack TPE fuel economy timings? At Earlestown more signal checks because an ATW 175 is now in front, fast over the Moss and through Manchester suburbs apart from the PSR/TSR? at Astley Moss and another signal check at Ordsall Jct. Despite all this on time arrivals at every station all the way to MIA! A 156 would have lost about 10 minutes due to their sluggish acceleration which also flattens off after a certain speed, whereas the 319s just keep on accelerating even when they are up to 60mph plus, their acceleration curve is constant.

The 13.40 return was a splendid run 4mins early at Lime Street.

I travelled in the power car both ways, not quiet, because I actually like the hum of the electric motors and gear noise in preference to gurgling spluttering DMUs but I would imagine the non-powered cars must seem very quiet compared with diesel units and it is very noticeable that the train is quiet when standing at Lime Street and 142s, 150s 156s and 185s are on adjacent tracks, the place will be quite civilised by the end of the year with DMUs banished from the ManVic, and Wigan locals! roll on!

 

[tom1649]

The pantograph coach is where I always sit. I love the sound of the traction equipment on these.

 

[fowler9]

Like you I tried them out today and was impressed with the performance which seemed to be outpacing even the newer DMUs. The 12.15 left Lime Street immediately behind the 12.12 TPE 185 to Newcastle and despite the TPE train being booked as non stop we were constantly being signal checked behind it to Wavertree. A really exhilarating flight through Broad Green to Huyton Quarry then checks all the way to St Helens Jct, presumably catching up the 185 drifting along on half power to the slack TPE fuel economy timings? At Earlestown more signal checks because an ATW 175 is now in front, fast over the Moss and through Manchester suburbs apart from the PSR/TSR? at Astley Moss and another signal check at Ordsall Jct. Despite all this on time arrivals at every station all the way to MIA! A 156 would have lost about 10 minutes due to their sluggish acceleration which also flattens off after a certain speed, whereas the 319s just keep on accelerating even when they are up to 60mph plus, their acceleration curve is constant.

The 13.40 return was a splendid run 4mins early at Lime Street.

I travelled in the power car both ways, not quiet, because I actually like the hum of the electric motors and gear noise in preference to gurgling spluttering DMUs but I would imagine the non-powered cars must seem very quiet compared with diesel units and it is very noticeable that the train is quiet when standing at Lime Street and 142s, 150s 156s and 185s are on adjacent tracks, the place will quite civilised by the end of the year with DMUs banished from the ManVic, and Wigan locals! roll on!

I was on the same service. Ha ha. Glad you enjoyed it to.

 

[martynbristow]

I was on the same service. Ha ha. Glad you enjoyed it to.

Just to note, I've used that TPE a few times and would never describe it as slow, it gets up some good speed beyond Huyton.
You were being checked because of a late running Northern stopper to Wigan. The 12:00 left 3 minutes late and was holding back the TPE through Huyton.
Role on 4 tracks through Huyton too

 

[Bald Rick]

... whereas the 319s just keep on accelerating even when they are up to 60mph plus, their acceleration curve is constant.

A minor pedantic point, the 319s don't have a constant acceleration curve, although no doubt it is considerably better than the DMUs. I'm not sure what gradients (and linespeeds!) are like on these lines, but on the MML 319s will top out at around 85/90 on the 8 mile drag up to Elstree Tunnel from West Hampstead. Whereas the new 387s are doing 100 by Cricklewood (1 mile)

Mark you, it is brilliant how there is so much enthusiasm for the 319s, given there have been 2 years of "we're getting second hand cast offs" threads.

 

[Techniquest]

Those people clearly had not been down to the Thameslink route and enjoyed the 319s previously! Very positive news that they're being received well, although I still can't help myself wondering what it would be like at Lime Street with 323s. Yes I know it's not happening blah blah blah but the image in my head does put a smile on my face! The noise would be epic

No doubt it will still be quite funky with the 319s of course, shall soon find out!

 

[ianhr]

Just to note, I've used that TPE a few times and would never describe it as slow, it gets up some good speed beyond Huyton.
You were being checked because of a late running Northern stopper to Wigan. The 12:00 left 3 minutes late and was holding back the TPE through Huyton.
Role on 4 tracks through Huyton too

Thanks for that, I had not noticed the Wigan train and it does show that the 4th track at Huyton is needed and will improve things. When the Wigan trains are worked by 319s they should shift a bit quicker too, notwithstanding the stops.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A minor pedantic point, the 319s don't have a constant acceleration curve, although no doubt it is considerably better than the DMUs. I'm not sure what gradients (and linespeeds!) are like on these lines, but on the MML 319s will top out at around 85/90 on the 8 mile drag up to Elstree Tunnel from West Hampstead. Whereas the new 387s are doing 100 by Cricklewood (1 mile)

Mark you, it is brilliant how there is so much enthusiasm for the 319s, given there have been 2 years of "we're getting second hand cast offs" threads.

Oh yes, I accept your point, I was generalising a bit. The gradients (and curves) on the main part of the L&MR route are quite modest and I cannot now but admire that it is still a fine piece of engineering, now 185 years old and upgraded to be fit for purpose for the 21st century! I think George Stephenson would approve of what has been done with his pioneering main line.

The only exception of course is the climb from Lime Street to Edge Hill but the original route went to Crown Street and there the incline from the terminus was rope worked at first. There is still a speed restriction at Astley Moss which seems to be the most 'dynamic' spot on the Chat Moss 'raft' where you can stand by the line and watch the track and the trains bounce! (although I have not visited since the electrification was completed).

 

[martynbristow]

Thanks for that, I had not noticed the Wigan train and it does show that the 4th track at Huyton is needed and will improve things. When the Wigan trains are worked by 319s they should shift a bit quicker too, notwithstanding the stops.

Deffinatly
when its all 319s it will be brilliant