Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

You mean those red-doored cubicles they're putting into the 319s, in the non-motor centre coach?

I don't know what colour they are but it was discussed earlier on in the thread that on some 319s not currently being transferred to Northern that they had removed both existing toilets to insert a new accessible toilet.

 

[Techniquest]

I don't know what colour they are but it was discussed earlier on in the thread that on some 319s not currently being transferred to Northern that they had removed both existing toilets to insert a new accessible toilet.

In that case it'll be the red-doored cubicles. 319429 is just one of several I've been on so fitted (I think 319006 was done on my Kent Rover and also so fitted), although there's still a lot of /3s and /4s that haven't been done.

I can't see why people are complaining about seat loss, there's certainly no difference noticeable on the 319s. The cubicles appear to take up only slightly more room (due to the width) than the existing facilities on BR-era DMUs, so seat loss and room lost to the new facilities should be fairly minimal. I'd guess on a 150/1 you'd lose maybe 12 (8 useable ones!) seats, but if it's 2+2 then after a re-jig you'd probably only lose about 4. Hardly the end of the world!

I know the above paragraph is not directly related to this thread, but it is kinda related, as it's based on experience of 319s recently.

It is going to be slightly awkward only having one lavatory on 319s as opposed to two, but have you tried getting through the door on one of those with a backpack or anything else? Plus they're nowhere near as effective as the new cubicles, the difference is enormous and I'm rather glad the old lot are being replaced!

 

[Cheshire Rover]

One was running through Runcorn at approx 1555 this afternoon heading towards Crewe.

 

[AM9]

In that case it'll be the red-doored cubicles. 319429 is just one of several I've been on so fitted (I think 319006 was done on my Kent Rover and also so fitted), although there's still a lot of /3s and /4s that haven't been done.

I can't see why people are complaining about seat loss, there's certainly no difference noticeable on the 319s. The cubicles appear to take up only slightly more room (due to the width) than the existing facilities on BR-era DMUs, so seat loss and room lost to the new facilities should be fairly minimal. I'd guess on a 150/1 you'd lose maybe 12 (8 useable ones!) seats, but if it's 2+2 then after a re-jig you'd probably only lose about 4. Hardly the end of the world!

I know the above paragraph is not directly related to this thread, but it is kinda related, as it's based on experience of 319s recently.

It is going to be slightly awkward only having one lavatory on 319s as opposed to two, but have you tried getting through the door on one of those with a backpack or anything else? Plus they're nowhere near as effective as the new cubicles, the difference is enormous and I'm rather glad the old lot are being replaced!

I agree with that, given that the extra space speeds ones progress within. Also the open space outside the accessible cubicle door means that visitors are less likely to spend so long in them, meaning a quicker turnover of users.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah the old toilets in 319s, 321s etc. can be a bit grim but it was useful having two opposite each other as it meant that, particularly on late night services, you could just use the other one when there'd inevitably have been a chunderstorm in one of them. Eugh, I don't miss using the 'party train'

 

[northwichcat]

Northern's Journey Check site shows a couple of Chat Moss services

"Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 4.
This is due to overhead wire problems."

However, according to Nationalrail.co.uk the overhead wire problems are at Winsford and all services on Chat Moss are running roughly to time so did a 319 get stuck at Crewe following a training exercise or is that an invalid excuse given by Northern?

 

[driver_m]

Northern's Journey Check site shows a couple of Chat Moss services

"Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 4.
This is due to overhead wire problems."

However, according to Nationalrail.co.uk the overhead wire problems are at Winsford and all services on Chat Moss are running roughly to time so did a 319 get stuck at Crewe following a training exercise or is that an invalid excuse given by Northern?

Its because theyre telling the truth and that there were OLE problems at Huyton.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There was a problem with the OLE which couldn't be repaired overnight because of high winds. This meant no 319s today.

 

[jonesy3001]

Are they still doing the driver training runs between preston and carnforth?
If so what are the times,please.

 

[185]

On one now. Seems deathly slow setting off. Don't see any reduction in running time, but the space is good.

 

[Cotty]

Went on 319 362 a few days ago, it was faster than the diesels and it had to wait at a couple of stations because it was ahead of schedule.

Should improve the journey times when the time tables are changed to take advantage of the extra speed.

The bloke next to me didn't seem to notice the difference though, he fell asleep!

 

[387star]

From rail technology magazine:

Northern’s Class 319s take to the rails
Sam McCaffrey paid a visit to Allerton depot to see what Northern Rail has done with the Class 319s that have been sent up from Thameslink, ready for electric operations. He heard more from Rob Warnes, planning and programmes director at Northern Rail.
On the outside, the electric Class 319/3s that Northern Rail has refurbished for operation between Liverpool and Manchester look slick and flash. The two-tone purple livery and white Northern Electrics branding looks modern and sophisticated, giving you the expectation of finally stepping onto the train of the future that the north has long been waiting for.
How disappointing then when you board: a new moquette and extensive paint job ultimately can’t disguise the 319s’ true age. Sitting down as the train glided out of Liverpool South Parkway, on a journey to Crewe for driver training, I couldn’t shake the feeling that I was aboard what would eventually become known as the north’s electric Pacer. Unkind souls refer to the 319s as “clapped out” – they have done an awful lot of miles since the 1980s – and although a lot of effort has gone into these predominately cosmetic improvements, many in the north will wonder why they get hand-me-downs, even on new electric infrastructure, when London commuter routes get new-built electric trains like the Class 700.




To confirm 319361-369/71-72/74-79/82-83/86 moving to northern?

This from Abrail which also claims all 319/0s are in FCC or plain white liveries but. I am sure 008/013 still wear southern livery?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

On one now. Seems deathly slow setting off. Don't see any reduction in running time, but the space is good.

The train may have been following something or the driver may know/realise they don't need to hammer the unit to stick to time, but when they do get going they seem to make good time compared to the diesel timetable, if given a clear run.

Today's 1040 from Manchester Airport, for example, was right time out of Oxford Road and three minutes early at Parkside Junction. It was held for time at Newton and St Helens and gained another three minutes by Olive Mount Junction.

 

[Loop & Link]

[Deleted]

 

[AM9]

From rail technology magazine:

Northern’s Class 319s take to the rails....
.... many in the north will wonder why they get hand-me-downs, even on new electric infrastructure, when London commuter routes get new-built electric trains like the Class 700.

You can understand a local rag making uninformed statements to whip-up its readers, but for a publication that calls itself 'Rail Technology Magazine', it either shows a breathtaking lack of knowledge about the subject or a disregard for its readers' intelligence.

 

[158756]

They're definitely running 1-2 minutes earlier between stations having looked at the reporting points and having travelled on them. Bear in mind they are running at 90 vice 75 mph!

From looking at RTT they seem to do better going towards Liverpool than towards Manchester, but neither path looks to have anything in the way. Eastbound most services seem to gain 1-2 minutes over the whole journey, if anything.

 

[mtbox]

They're definitely running 1-2 minutes earlier between stations having looked at the reporting points and having travelled on them. Bear in mind they are running at 90 vice 75 mph!

My opinion of that is poor driving, if you are constantly arriving early there is absolutely no point in going at 90mph because all you do is sit in a station waiting time. It seems pretty obvious to me the service is still timed for a diesel.
On an electric route I sign, if we depart on time there is no reason to run at full speed to keep to time. You don't even need use full power and you are bang on time departing each station. Run at full speed, accelerating in full power, you are hanging around in stations each time you stop, which fairly regularly leads to trains leaving stations 2-3 minutes early when the crew don't check the times.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A 319 appears to be out on the all stops service today if anyone is interested.

 

[ianhr]

A 319 appears to be out on the all stops service today if anyone is interested.

I assume the "all stops" must be diverted to Man Oxford Rd or Piccadilly then as Man Vic is not switched on yet and presumably closed this weekend?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Victoria is closed for four days over Easter, the all stops service goes to Oxford Road.

 

[ianhr]

Victoria is closed for four days over Easter, the all stops service goes to Oxford Road.

Thanks for confirming that. It will be the first time an electric train in traffic stops at Eccles and Patricroft then, so worth a celebration for anyone in the area!

 

[edwin_m]

My opinion of that is poor driving, if you are constantly arriving early there is absolutely no point in going at 90mph because all you do is sit in a station waiting time. It seems pretty obvious to me the service is still timed for a diesel.
On an electric route I sign, if we depart on time there is no reason to run at full speed to keep to time. You don't even need use full power and you are bang on time departing each station. Run at full speed, accelerating in full power, you are hanging around in stations each time you stop, which fairly regularly leads to trains leaving stations 2-3 minutes early when the crew don't check the times.

Although they've had the training, I imagine most of the drivers still haven't had that much hands-on experience with driving the 319s, for example in weather conditions they didn't encounter on the training runs. Could it be simply getting a feel for what the units can do and this will settle down in time?

I think we know the service is still timed for a diesel, but the timings will be tightened up at some future timetable change once there are enough 319s and crews that EMUs can be pretty much guaranteed available on all the diagrams. So there could also be an element of the drivers finding out what they might have to do to meet the new schedules.

 

[Class 170101]

I think we know the service is still timed for a diesel, but the timings will be tightened up at some future timetable change once there are enough 319s and crews that EMUs can be pretty much guaranteed available on all the diagrams. So there could also be an element of the drivers finding out what they might have to do to meet the new schedules.

The timings are not being tightened at the May 2015 timetable change according to Real Time Trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My opinion of that is poor driving, if you are constantly arriving early there is absolutely no point in going at 90mph because all you do is sit in a station waiting time. It seems pretty obvious to me the service is still timed for a diesel.

Surely even though the route will still be timed for DMUs in May its an advantage for drivers to establish new braking points by driving the 319s at 90mph as these will be different to 75mph DMUs not withdtanding the longer dwells at stations.

I am sure train crew and station staff will appreciate the extra dwell time in the interim for station duties including customer facing ones.

 

[Cotty]

With a 319 running to Oxford Road on a stopper does this mean there are three 319s in service today?

 

[HSTEd]

Also I imagine some drivers might be luxuriating in the superior speed and performance of the electric units.
If you drive Pacers and Sprinters all the time, being able to drive something a bit more sprightly is probably a nice change.

 

[Bevan Price]

From looking at RTT they seem to do better going towards Liverpool than towards Manchester, but neither path looks to have anything in the way. Eastbound most services seem to gain 1-2 minutes over the whole journey, if anything.

Airport services are almost "sat on the tail" of Arriva North Wales services in both directions between Newton Le Willows & Manchester. It only needs 2-3 minutes lateness of the Arriva service to produce signal checks to the Airport service.

 

[Cotty]

Does anyone know if the 319s will be working anymore diagrams soon and if so which diagrams?

 

[snowball]

It's been suggested that there will not be any more until the May timetable change, whereupon all services which remain within the electrified lines will go over to them.

 

[387star]

In this correct?

To confirm 319361-369/71-72/74-79/82-83/86 moving to northern? They must be wrong somewhere as 380 is with Northern

This from Abrail which also claims all 319/0s are in FCC or plain white liveries but. I am sure 008/013 still wear southern livery?[/QUOTE]

 

[158722]

In this correct?

To confirm 319361-369/71-72/74-79/82-83/86 moving to northern? They must be wrong somewhere as 380 is with Northern

This from Abrail which also claims all 319/0s are in FCC or plain white liveries but. I am sure 008/013 still wear southern livery?

[/QUOTE]

319361-369/71-72/74-80/82/86 has been noted elsewhere, namely all the 3s minus 370/73/81/83/84/85.

Seems to add up correctly, with everything bar 375-378 either with Northern in some form or other, or at Wolverton.