Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[pemma]

Your confusing the initial DfT plan for the 319s to have no work done with them on entering service that Northern managed to get changed with long term ability to make the units three cars.

Initial plan was actually fully refurbished 319s to enter service in the North West with PIS, accessible toilets, new seating and air conditioning and to be additional units for the North West as unveiled by Lord Adonis and confirmed by Sadiq Khan on numerous visits to the North West. (The rumour was it would be 2+2 seating with tables.)

Then we had a change in government who wasn't sure whether to spend money on electrification, then wasn't sure whether to allow Northern to keep all their existing DMUs as well as the 319s, then decided the 319s would enter service as they were before changing their mind and allowing a refresh and PIS to be fitted.

 

[D365]

Did not the setback in procurement for the Class 700 mean it was too short a timescale to implement the initially proposed refurbishment for the Class 319 cascade? Either way, I understand a full refurbishment is required to keep the type in service beyond 2020, which should be possible once much more of the fleet is available.

 

[pemma]

Did not the setback in procurement for the Class 700 mean it was too short a timescale to implement the initially proposed refurbishment for the Class 319 cascade?

I think it's more down to political reasons as it would have been possible to start a full refurbishment before the next franchise started, a full refurbishment didn't have to mean all 319s would have had to be fully refurbished before entering service with Northern.

The Labour government had promised brand new DMUs and then came up with cascaded 319s and electrification instead so probably wanted the cascaded trains to be 'like new' so that they could argue the change is a good deal for the North and not just an idea to off-load old Thameslink trains.

The Coalition government seemed to be under the impression the Northern franchise doesn't include any clauses about additional carriages or refurbishment, so they could just extend the franchise and give Northern 319s as they are and make them release some DMUs as well.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No doubt the three bidders for Northern will even now be negotiating upgrade packages with the ROSCOs for their intended fleets post-2016.
The DfT will then get to pick and choose what it likes/can afford.
All to play for.
Another couple of years on the clock for 319s, since the original cascade plans were formulated, doesn't help the business case however.
Nor does the interim refresh.

 

[Class377/5]

Initial plan was actually fully refurbished 319s to enter service in the North West with PIS, accessible toilets, new seating and air conditioning and to be additional units for the North West as unveiled by Lord Adonis and confirmed by Sadiq Khan on numerous visits to the North West. (The rumour was it would be 2+2 seating with tables.)

Then we had a change in government who wasn't sure whether to spend money on electrification, then wasn't sure whether to allow Northern to keep all their existing DMUs as well as the 319s, then decided the 319s would enter service as they were before changing their mind and allowing a refresh and PIS to be fitted.

There was never any agreement in place with the ROSCO tho, so although they had worked out how to do it (and make the fleet more apealing to other TOCs), not was going to do the work. A significant difference between the two.

Did not the setback in procurement for the Class 700 mean it was too short a timescale to implement the initially proposed refurbishment for the Class 319 cascade? Either way, I understand a full refurbishment is required to keep the type in service beyond 2020, which should be possible once much more of the fleet is available.

Work to make the fleet ready for 2020 started last year. All Thameslink unit visiting Wolverton are going through this process. The Northern units aren't having the full works but the ROSCO is planning on doing the work to all the 319s.

 

[pemma]

There was never any agreement in place with the ROSCO tho, so although they had worked out how to do it (and make the fleet more apealing to other TOCs), not was going to do the work. A significant difference between the two.

What I was disputing is where you said

initial DfT plan for the 319s to have no work done with them on entering service

The initial plan wasn't the revised one the Coalition government came up with to do nothing.

If you still have the original documents accompanying the Chat Moss/Thames Valley announcement you'd see in black and white it said the EMUs cascaded from Thameslink would be fully refurbished including giving them air conditioning before being transferred to Chat Moss/Thames Valley. It didn't specifically mention 319s but that was the first clue that it was 319s - 377s were also used on Thameslink but they didn't need fitting with air conditioning because they already had it.

 

[Class377/5]

What I was disputing is where you said

The initial plan wasn't the revised one the Coalition government came up with to do nothing.

If you still have the original documents accompanying the Chat Moss/Thames Valley announcement you'd see in black and white it said the EMUs cascaded from Thameslink would be fully refurbished including giving them air conditioning before being transferred to Chat Moss/Thames Valley. It didn't specifically mention 319s but that was the first clue that it was 319s - 377s were also used on Thameslink but they didn't need fitting with air conditioning because they already had it.

An announcement (which Im fully aware of what was started) is not what I was disputing. Watcher said the ROSCO was going to do the work, it wasn't. All it had done was work out how to achieve various changes. Big difference from it was going to. It was however waiting to be told what to do.

 

[AM9]

An announcement (which Im fully aware of what was started) is not what I was disputing. Watcher said the ROSCO was going to do the work, it wasn't. All it had done was work out how to achieve various changes. Big difference from it was going to. It was however waiting to be told what to do.

And of course to get paid a fair amount for doing it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its what the ROSCO wanted to do with them but Dft wouldn't authorise an extensive refurbishment just a refresh. However the next franchisee is required to refurbish all their stock so work may still be done.

An announcement (which Im fully aware of what was started) is not what I was disputing. Watcher said the ROSCO was going to do the work, it wasn't. All it had done was work out how to achieve various changes. Big difference from it was going to. It was however waiting to be told what to do.

I didn't say it was going to do, I said it Wanted to do the work. It had worked out what the work involved and was promoting the upgrade package alongside its standard leasing term. The government however didn't want any work done on them at all before the franchise change and for them to even enter service in their old liveries, initially the only work the Government would authorise was unplating the door controls for guards which had been plated over by their previous user. Installation of air conditioning however wasn't promoted by the ROSCO, it was a government minimum quality promise, which they broke. Northern/PTE's had to arm twist the government into getting them to approve even the limited 'refresh' pointing out the PR implications and the lasting and irreversible damage that would be done to the passengers perceptions through their first impressions of electric services.

 

[jcc]

Class 319 roster

 

[playboy81]

I took my first ride in a 319 from MIA to LIV. Given how old they are I was surprised by how fresh they appeared inside. Despite no major overhaul, the refresh has indeed done just that. It makes me wonder how much nicer the sprinters could be if they were given the same treatment. They look absolutely awful. I sincerely hope the next franchise holder will begin a programme of improvements

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I took my first ride in a 319 from MIA to LIV. Given how old they are I was surprised by how fresh they appeared inside. Despite no major overhaul, the refresh has indeed done just that. It makes me wonder how much nicer the sprinters could be if they were given the same treatment. They look absolutely awful. I sincerely hope the next franchise holder will begin a programme of improvements

Try one of the newly refurbished ATW 150s.
They (well, at least 150 229 which I came across this week) have 2+2 interiors with new seating like ATW's 158s.
They include some real tables for the bays of four.
Leg room is still a bit cramped, but a good effort.

 

[capital12]

Try one of the newly refurbished ATW 150s.
They (well, at least 150 229 which I came across this week) have 2+2 interiors with new seating like ATW's 158s.
They include some real tables for the bays of four.
Leg room is still a bit cramped, but a good effort.

Was it definitely new seating (ie the Grammer type fitted to the 158s/WAG Mk3s), as the ATW 150s already had 2+2 Chapman seating from a previous refurb.

I only ask as the recent refurbs I'd been on had had the Chapman seats retrimmed rather than replaced.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was it definitely new seating (ie the Grammer type fitted to the 158s/WAG Mk3s), as the ATW 150s already had 2+2 Chapman seating from a previous refurb.
I only ask as the recent refurbs I'd been on had had the Chapman seats retrimmed rather than replaced.

Hmm. Don't know enough about the seat types, really.
They certainly had the new ATW trim a la 158/Mk3s.
The tables were also new compared to the previous refurb.

 

[casualobserver]

The refurbishment to the ATW 150/2s includes a re-upholstery of the Chapman seating originally installed under the Wales and West franchise.

 

[samuelmorris]

Despite looking pretty similar to the original interior (LED lighting aside), the FGW 150s are perfectly decent enough to travel in. The Northern 150 I used over new years' however was shocking. I've never seen so much rust in a train apart from something undergoing restoration.

 

[pemma]

Despite looking pretty similar to the original interior (LED lighting aside), the FGW 150s are perfectly decent enough to travel in. The Northern 150 I used over new years' however was shocking. I've never seen so much rust in a train apart from something undergoing restoration.

Apparently the 150/2s which were inserted in to 150/1s while being used in the Midlands arrived in a very sorry state.

 

[samuelmorris]

Said unit had Northern rail seat upholstery, so I'm not really sure that's an excuse. I can understand receiving units in a poor state, but if they put their own seat covers on you'd expect them to really look at the rest of the unit. Honestly made some of the older units I use in the southeast look positively gleaming.
Hopefully the 319s are never allowed to get into that sort of state.

 

[table38]

Had my first trip on a "Northern Electric" yesterday and, apart from stupidly choosing the coach with the noisy compressor, was quite impressed.

It wasn't until I got on a 150 later that I realised that I think it's the preponderance of bays of 4 and 6, and low seat backs that make the 319's so appealing. Groups getting on could easily occupy a vacant bay, rather than being segregated between high-backed airline seats.

 

[childwallblues]

Apparently the 150/2s which were inserted in to 150/1s while being used in the Midlands arrived in a very sorry state.

It was the 150/1 as well. They were put into service in as received state. At least one 150/2 had two different liveries

 

[samuelmorris]

Had my first trip on a "Northern Electric" yesterday and, apart from stupidly choosing the coach with the noisy compressor, was quite impressed.

It wasn't until I got on a 150 later that I realised that I think it's the preponderance of bays of 4 and 6, and low seat backs that make the 319's so appealing. Groups getting on could easily occupy a vacant bay, rather than being segregated between high-backed airline seats.

Services up north are that quiet then are they?

 

[pemma]

It was the 150/1 as well. They were put into service in as received state. At least one 150/2 had two different liveries

I remember catching one half in Central Trains livery and half in Centro livery.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Services up north are that quiet then are they?

Like I've said numerous times before putting 4 car 319s on all Chat Moss services means some services get more capacity than they need, while overcrowded services on other lines don't get the extra capacity they need.

I recall getting a Southeastern service which was booked for a 8 car 465 but a 4 car 465 turned up and there was a lot of grumbling about a short formed train, yet there were enough seats for everyone. It seems down South you see 4 cars as automatically insufficient.

 

[AM9]

Like I've said numerous times before putting 4 car 319s on all Chat Moss services means some services get more capacity than they need, while overcrowded services on other lines don't get the extra capacity they need.

Two routes have been upgraded already this year and they have regular 4-car services. All the stock has been imported from non-Northern sources, so how can this have made the (so far) unchanged services worse? Indeed, those other services may be slightly improved in the near future by:

receiving some of the DMUs released from the electrified routes​

and​

maybe a small reduction in traffic where passengers can use the electrified routes as alternatives.​

In due course, the 'other lines' (are we thinking CLC maybe?) will get the benefits of electrification if their passenger levels justify it.

I recall getting a Southeastern service which was booked for a 8 car 465 but a 4 car 465 turned up and there was a lot of grumbling about a short formed train, yet there were enough seats for everyone. It seems down South you see 4 cars as automatically insufficient.

Without details of where this event took place, it's difficult to comment. Short-formed trains in the London area do frequently give problems over some parts of their journeys where regular passenger traffic can peak, especially closer to London termini.
Of course, maybe the passengers were just moaning that they had to walk back down the platform. Travellers in the south-east do get used to necessarily short dwells by standing exactly where they wish to board.

 

[pemma]

Two routes have been upgraded already this year and they have regular 4-car services. All the stock has been imported from non-Northern sources, so how can this have made the (so far) unchanged services worse? Indeed, those other services may be slightly improved in the near future by:

receiving some of the DMUs released from the electrified routes​

and​

maybe a small reduction in traffic where passengers can use the electrified routes as alternatives.​

In due course, the 'other lines' (are we thinking CLC maybe?) will get the benefits of electrification if their passenger levels justify it.

Manchester Airport-Liverpool services were all booked as 2 car Sprinters, mainly 156s.

Manchester Victoria-Liverpool services was rarely 4 car except at peak times. Off-peak services were mainly 2 car 142s and 2 car 150s.

Wigan-Liverpool was the one route which could see 4 car workings all day. It's also the route which saw 4 car 156s so you could argue 4 car 319s are less comfortable with smaller carriages and higher density seating.

What introducing 319s has done has ensured all those services go up to 4 car all day whether they have 50 passengers, 150 passengers or 250 passengers. Hence some services have a lot of empty seats.

If Northern had received additional diesel carriages the majority of them probably wouldn't have gone on to Chat Moss. The extra carriages have gone on to Chat Moss simply because it's been electrified, while other Northern services which urgently need extra capacity continue to get the same number of carriages due to Northern having to loan 6 x 156s to TPE so that Chiltern passengers can enjoy improved services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Without details of where this event took place, it's difficult to comment. Short-formed trains in the London area do frequently give problems over some parts of their journeys where regular passenger traffic can peak, especially closer to London termini.
Of course, maybe the passengers were just moaning that they had to walk back down the platform. Travellers in the south-east do get used to necessarily short dwells by standing exactly where they wish to board.

It was at Greenwich station heading towards London Cannon Street. The train was virtually empty after London Bridge. I only caught that service because the DLR line was closed for engineering works, so presumably others would have done the same.

 

[Loop & Link]

If anyone has any doubt about over-provision of 4-car 319's half-term last week services on Man Vic/Wigan-Liverpool extremely full with a few standees. Yes at times they will be quite empty, but I would say 4-car is definitely justified on these lines and have been for the last few years.

 

[pemma]

If anyone has any doubt about over-provision of 4-car 319's half-term last week services on Man Vic/Wigan-Liverpool extremely full with a few standees. Yes at times they will be quite empty, but I would say 4-car is definitely justified on these lines and have been for the last few years.

Half term can result in passenger numbers more than doubling on some services.

 

[AM9]

Manchester Airport-Liverpool services were all booked as 2 car Sprinters, mainly 156s.

Manchester Victoria-Liverpool services was rarely 4 car except at peak times. Off-peak services were mainly 2 car 142s and 2 car 150s.

Wigan-Liverpool was the one route which could see 4 car workings all day. It's also the route which saw 4 car 156s so you could argue 4 car 319s are less comfortable with smaller carriages and higher density seating.

What introducing 319s has done has ensured all those services go up to 4 car all day whether they have 50 passengers, 150 passengers or 250 passengers. Hence some services have a lot of empty seats.

You are looking at the situation from the wrong angle. What electrification has done is provide infrastructure that (almost everywhere else) increased patronage. Without the 319s or something like them being available, the electrification would not have been done yet.
At the moment, there are limited services and the timetable has not been fully 'electrified'. When the TPE route and MVC-PRE-BPN are completed all the north-western and many of the trans-pennine local and regional services will be transformed. That will be the time to judge whether things have improve.

Of course, not all lines can justifiy electrification or even new trains so it's inevitable that they will get 'previously cherished' rolling stock until that is life expired. It's sustained high levels of patronage to prompt DfT to commit large capital sums for investment.

If Northern had received additional diesel carriages the majority of them probably wouldn't have gone on to Chat Moss. The extra carriages have gone on to Chat Moss simply because it's been electrified, while other Northern services which urgently need extra capacity continue to get the same number of carriages due to Northern having to loan 6 x 156s to TPE so that Chiltern passengers can enjoy improved services.

It's time to move on and consider the future rather than keep repeating what might have happened. Electrification is a long-term infrastructure investment which means that when the 319s become life expired they will be replaced with new, or something fitting the traffic levels expected. Othere here have travelled on the Chat Moss and Wigan routes in 319s and find them much better than what went before. The transfer of 156s to TPE is a done deal so the consequence must be dealt with but long-term, electrification is the only realistic way to go if patronage is genuinely rising.

It was at Greenwich station heading towards London Cannon Street. The train was virtually empty after London Bridge. I only caught that service because the DLR line was closed for engineering works, so presumably others would have done the same.

It's unusual for trains into London to overprovide capacity throughout the off-peak period as there are lunch-time peaks and plenty of shoulder-peak demand. It is also disruptive to keep splitting and loining trains, hence the trand for fixed length stock being introduced, e.g. 700s and 707s. Trains from LBG to CHX are usually lightly loaded as there are so many routes to other places in London from LBG. It would be impossible to turn everything SE at LBG even after the rebuild.

 

[D365]

It is also disruptive to keep splitting and joining trains, hence the trend for fixed length stock being introduced, e.g. 700s and 707s.

The SWT Class 707 build will consist of 5-car units. Definitely not fixed formation.

 

[pemma]

You are looking at the situation from the wrong angle. What electrification has done is provide infrastructure that (almost everywhere else) increased patronage. Without the 319s or something like them being available, the electrification would not have been done yet.

At the moment, there are limited services and the timetable has not been fully 'electrified'. When the TPE route and MVC-PRE-BPN are completed all the north-western and many of the trans-pennine local and regional services will be transformed. That will be the time to judge whether things have improve.

Normally electrification has been done on lines with potential for significant growth. North West electrification and TransPennine electrification is in areas which have seen exponential growth without electrification over the last 10 years. So it's not possible to compare it with previous schemes, these are likely to expose the 'electrification sparks growth' as an old wives tale.

Yes without the 319s electrification wouldn't be done. Electrification was an alternative to an order of brand new DMUs when DfT realised they would be spare EMUs as a result of Thameslink and they were proposing ordering new DMUs for Northern, TPE and FGW.

The December 17 timetable for Chat Moss is set to be:
* 3tph Liverpool to Wigan - 1tph continuing to Preston/Blackpool
* 2tph Liverpool to Yorkshire/North East service via Victoria - alternate services running non-stop between Lime St and Victoria
* 1tph Liverpool to Manchester Airport stopping service.

I think transformation of services will happen as a result of the Ordsall Chord opposed to electrification, that is the one thing which will allow a complete recast for the Manchester area with more services. Indeed most of the TPE improvements are set to occur at least 3 years before Manchester-York electrification.

Of course, not all lines can justifiy electrification or even new trains so it's inevitable that they will get 'previously cherished' rolling stock until that is life expired. It's sustained high levels of patronage to prompt DfT to commit large capital sums for investment.

I think you're wrong in the case of Chat Moss. DfT thought Chat Moss should be electrified over the CLC for 2 reasons:
1. Chat Moss could be used as a diversionary route for WCML services to reach Manchester and Liverpool if it was electrified.
2. They thought it would help with overcrowding on the CLC line as there would be more Manchester-Liverpool services. However, so far this hasn't proved to be the case despite the CLC line now having as many services as it will have in December 2017.

It's a bit like the line through Stone being electrified. It's wasn't primarily because of loadings on local services, it's primarily to allow an improved Intercity services on the WCML.

 

[AM9]

The SWT Class 707 build will consist of 5-car units. Definitely not fixed formation.

Fixed at 5. The new GN Moorgate metro design is said to be 6-car and the Crossrail stock is 9-car. The 378s have always been fixed formation, it's just that the formation has been extended as the Overground sparks effect has increased patronage.