Northern Short Forming Again

[Snow1964]

This simply would not happen anywhere else in the country.

Are Northern that short of units that they must continuously short-form busy services?

GWR are short of units and far too regularly reduce the busy Cardiff-Bristol-Bath-Portsmouth service to 2car, so not unique to Northern, more a reflection on find it cheaper to do delay repay than offer a basic service.

 

[sportzbar]

I disagree with the person who says all Leeds to Manchester via the Calder are all 3/4 car.

It's either 2 car or 4 car from what I experience and it’s no fun having to stand for 30/40 minutes to or from Manchester on a crush loaded 195.

It was me who said they are booked as 3/4 car and your experience is just very unlucky for it to be two car, mainly as it's a route I drive many times a week. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have either driven or known a 2 car service on the Calder Valley in the past 6 months.

 

[skyhigh]

It's either 2 car or 4 car from what I experience

I know it's a Sunday, but every service from Leeds to Manchester until 2019 today is formed of either 3 or 4 cars. Just two are formed of 2 cars, the 2019 and 2119.

Taking a random date last week (Wednesday) it seems only one diagram was short formed and the rest were 3 or 4 car.

Generally there are plenty of 3 car workings about, so you are very unlucky not to see any.

 

[Geeves]

It would've been less but in the morning a Chester and Leeds come off Newton Heath together 3 car and 4 car. Unfortunately the four car for Leeds had an issue on the shed so came off as just 2 with late start on both.

Just had a quick check this morning, one short form on the Vic - Dewsbury - Leeds work. Every other train on the Calder Valley is 3 or 4 cars today (currently!)

***** 05:51 1J00 MANCR VIC 05:51 195107
***** 06:30 1J40 MANCR VIC 06:30 195005 195021
06:33 06:36 2I01 WIGAN NW 05:48 158754
***** 06:56 1J02 MANCR VIC 06:56 195004 195020
07:18 07:21 1E50 CHESTER 06:22 195132
07:33 07:36 2I03 WIGAN WAL 06:49 158759
***** 07:57 1J04 MANCR VIC 07:57 195001 195015
08:18 08:20 1E52 CHESTER 07:23 195006 195009
08:33 08:36 2I05 WIGAN NW 07:49 158869 158901
***** 08:57 1J06 MANCR VIC 08:57 195101
09:18 09:21 1E54 CHESTER 08:21 195115
09:33 09:36 2I07 WIGAN WAL 08:49 158794
***** 09:57 1J08 MANCR VIC 09:57 195005 195021
10:19 10:21 1E56 CHESTER 09:29 195008 195023
10:33 10:36 2I09 WIGAN WAL 09:49 158758
***** 10:57 1J10 MANCR VIC 10:57 195132

 

[Bovverboy]

Exactly, to which the solution is to either short-form trains or cancel them altogether. Short-formed and cancelled trains will always be with us, it's a feature of the current franchising system.

It would be a feature of any railway that relies on external funding.

You're probably right.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Currently on the two-car 195 12:04 Bradford Interchange to Chester service which is now full and standing after leaving Halifax three minutes late due to congestion.

Once again this is unacceptable in 2024 for these two-hour-plus journeys to be covered by inadequate capacity.

 

[geoffk]

GWR are short of units and far too regularly reduce the busy Cardiff-Bristol-Bath-Portsmouth service to 2car, so not unique to Northern, more a reflection on find it cheaper to do delay repay than offer a basic service.

and three units (Northern 150s) were found for the Marston Vale line. Meanwhile the 175s have no operator.

 

[1D53]

Currently on the two-car 195 12:04 Bradford Interchange to Chester service which is now full and standing after leaving Halifax three minutes late due to congestion.

Once again this is unacceptable in 2024 for these two-hour-plus journeys to be covered by inadequate capacity.

Unfortunately 4x3 car 195s stuck at Barrow plus the two damaged in the derailment. Leaves a bit short of three cars.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Unfortunately 4x3 car 195s stuck at Barrow plus the two damaged in the derailment. Leaves a bit short of three cars.

Barrow isn't at the end of a branch line. Get the undamaged sets to Carlisle even at low speed.

 

[skyhigh]

Barrow isn't at the end of a branch line. Get the undamaged sets to Carlisle even at low speed.

They are specifically not cleared for the route. Smashing another one into a bit of infrastructure isn't going to help anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are specifically not cleared for the route. Smashing another one into a bit of infrastructure isn't going to help anything.

The issue is supposedly that the 6 foot is a bit too narrow in the problem locations, so something could be put in place to extract them temporarily, e.g. a possession. The thing that needs to be avoided is anything trying to pass one on that section.

Or truck them out by road.

As with Ayr-Stranraer it just takes will (and money) to find an appropriate solution.

 

[1D53]

Barrow isn't at the end of a branch line. Get the undamaged sets to Carlisle even at low speed.

As discussed in the GoS derailment thread - they are not cleared and therefore stuck.

 

[northwichcat]

and three units (Northern 150s) were found for the Marston Vale line. Meanwhile the 175s have no operator.

And XC use 4 car sets on services that need double that. It's like someone thinks a service that runs between two of the biggest cities in the UK, before continuing to serve the National Exhibition Centre doesn't need all that many seats.

The 175s are already cleared for both Chester to Manchester routes, as well as the Barrow and Windermere routes.

Unfortunately 4x3 car 195s stuck at Barrow plus the two damaged in the derailment. Leaves a bit short of three cars.

Given there's Manchester Airport to Barrow services only going as far as Lancaster or Preston, can't Northern allocate 331s to them in the mean time and use the recently cascaded 323s to fill in on another route?

 

[geoffk]

The issue is supposedly that the 6 foot is a bit too narrow in the problem locations, so something could be put in place to extract them temporarily, e.g. a possession. The thing that needs to be avoided is anything trying to pass one on that section.

Or truck them out by road.

As with Ayr-Stranraer it just takes will (and money) to find an appropriate solution.

I remember the first generation dmus used on the Cumbrian coast line were required to have window bars but thought the restriction was in Whitehaven tunnel. Are there issues elsewhere?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Given there's Manchester Airport to Barrow services only going as far as Lancaster or Preston, can't Northern allocate 331s to them in the mean time and use the recently cascaded 323s to fill in on another route?

A 195 will go to both Barrow and Windermere on one diagram, meaning they'd need to redo the diagrams to make that happen.

The 323s are mostly on training duties, there's barely enough EMUs to run the electric diagrams since the 319s left.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Couldn’t Northern get the spare 175s and put them on Chester - Leeds services?

 

[scrapy]

Couldn’t Northern get the spare 175s and put them on Chester - Leeds services?

They could, if the DFT approved the spend on leasing costs, the cost of crew and maintenance staff training, the ongoing running and maintenance costs, and paid for somewhere for these units to be stabled and serviced as Northerns depots and sidings are pretty full already.

The chances of this happening to cover a few short formed trains that if it wasn't Easter holidays would probably be able to easily cope, in a world where the railway is being told to cut costs are imo less than 1%.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It's far quicker to fix the sinkhole and get the 4 trains out of Barrow than any other pie in the sky idea!

 

[Geeves]

Supposedly a fair few 150s going spare from South Wales very soon, some already stood down waiting exams. That would be a much better fit than the 175s would be, they could be in service in days vs months or longer!

 

[Bovverboy]

Unfortunately 4x3 car 195s stuck at Barrow plus the two damaged in the derailment. Leaves a bit short of three cars.

Two sets are saved by running Airport - Lancaster rather than Airport - Barrow.

 

[yorksrob]

And all of those 153's unceremoniously removed a year or two ago.

 

[GhostManDN91]

I'm currently on 1E60, 11:49 from Warrington Bank Quay to Leeds service. 4 car 195. The guard has just announced that when this gets to Manchester Victoria the train will be split with only the front 2 carriages going to Leeds.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm currently on 1E60, 11:49 from Warrington Bank Quay to Leeds service. 4 car 195. The guard has just announced that when this gets to Manchester Victoria the train will be split with only the front 2 carriages going to Leeds.

From RTT it looks like it was shunted across to platform 1, where it will be attached to 195017 that's currently working the 12:12 Leeds to Victoria, so that the 13:37 Victoria to Leeds is 4 cars.

 

[Bovverboy]

From RTT it looks like it was shunted across to platform 1, where it will be attached to 195017 that's currently working the 12:12 Leeds to Victoria, so that the 13:37 Victoria to Leeds is 4 cars.

195010 was indeed shunted over to Platform 1 to attach to 195017, but the departure time was 1357 (1J16). The 1337 is a Wigan Wallgate to Leeds via Dewsbury and was today booked for a double 158.
The move for 195010, isn't that what's called 'robbing Peter to pay Paul'?

Unfortunately 4x3 car 195s stuck at Barrow plus the two damaged in the derailment. Leaves a bit short of three cars.

All the Airport - Lancaster and Airport - Windermere seem to be running as a single 195/1, i.e. 3-car. Does anyone know which journeys are usually booked for a double 195/1? I presume that's how four 195/1s have come to be stuck at Barrow, i.e. they were due to have operated as two doubles.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

195010 was indeed shunted over to Platform 1 to attach to 195017, but the departure time was 1357 (1J16). The 1337 is a Wigan Wallgate to Leeds via Dewsbury and was today booked for a double 158.
The move for 195010, isn't that what's called 'robbing Peter to pay Paul'?

That's what happens when there's a shortage of units! Looking at subsequent workings it looks like control identified their priorities for double units in the pm peak and balanced them against the expected availability of additional units after inter-peak maintenance. Moving 195010 like that was probably the least inconvenient way to achieve that goal.

 

[stan claire]

I commute on the Manchester Airport to Blackpool services and I have to say they put zero sense into the capacity on these services
1N53 (16:48 Manchester Airport to Blackpool) service has always been a 6-car formation. From my experience it's far from busy despite it being a peak train
And then you've got 1N54 or the 17:17 from the Airport. At the start of 2024, I could've sworn they put a 3-car or 4-car 331 on that service more times than the 6-car they're meant to put. That service is bad enough as a 6, if you manage to get a seat on that service (especially on the front set) you deserve an award. And when it is a short formation, you're either stood up, against the windows, or it goes past your station because of overcrowding. I'd even accept a 195 on that service as long as it runs with its booked capacity
It doesn't help that there's zero extra services at peak time on this route except for the extra Barrow - Airport services and the extra Airport - Windermere service at Horwich. They essentially need an additional Preston to Manchester service (and back in the evening) calling at all stations bar Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley and Clifton.
Making the Airport to Cumbria services call at Horwich and Buckshaw would also be helpful, bringing back the 3 services an hour which was removed in December 2021, personally I would also find direct trains from my local station to Lancaster and the Lake District more useful than to Blackpool

 

[northwichcat]

And then you've got 1N54 or the 17:17 from the Airport. At the start of 2024, I could've sworn they put a 3-car or 4-car 331 on that service more times than the 6-car they're meant to put. That service is bad enough as a 6, if you manage to get a seat on that service (especially on the front set) you deserve an award. And when it is a short formation, you're either stood up, against the windows, or it goes past your station because of overcrowding. I'd even accept a 195 on that service as long as it runs with its booked capacity

It's been discussed elsewhere the 4 car units were intended for the North West but were initially sent to West Yorkshire, until platform lengthening works allowed 6 car formations. They've recently done a swap (following recent cascades), so the 4 car units are now in the North West. That may mean the service you catch isn't currently booked as a 6 car train. Things may improve when they get more cascaded 323s into service.

They essentially need an additional Preston to Manchester service (and back in the evening) calling at all stations bar Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley and Clifton.

I doubt they'll be a path for that. Piccadilly and Oxford Road have the maximum number of services that Network Rail will allow. While Victoria's busier now it's got North TransPennine services.

Maybe the solution is 6 cars on a peak Oxford Road to Southport service with a unit either detached or locked from Wigan onwards?

 

[stan claire]

It's been discussed elsewhere the 4 car units were intended for the North West but were initially sent to West Yorkshire, until platform lengthening works allowed 6 car formations. They've recently done a swap (following recent cascades), so the 4 car units are now in the North West. That may mean the service you catch isn't currently booked as a 6 car train.

Thinking about it now it does somewhat make sense as I'm sure in 2020 the first time I went on a 331 it was a /1, and at that point the platform lengths at Adlington, Blackrod and Leyland could only fit 4 car units (with the 6 car 331s using ASDO) and Euxton can only fit 4 cars and I don't see it being extended anytime soon
When 1N54 was short formed one time (and 1Y55 the same diagram in the morning, 07:22 off Blackpool) and the guard said to me that it was booked as a 6 car and the one before doesn't need so much capacity, a few staff have also said to me that even they're complaining about the overcrowding but I don't see much happening in the near future

Maybe the solution is 6 cars on a peak Oxford Road to Southport service with a unit either detached or locked from Wigan onwards?

Would it not make more sense for a Wigan terminator to do that so it can actually use an EMU? I also doubt Northern will want to put a 195 on that route

 

[northwichcat]

Would it not make more sense for a Wigan terminator to do that so it can actually use an EMU? I also doubt Northern will want to put a 195 on that route

A post in another thread claims when they sent a 195 to Southport on a test it got stuck.

There's a very vocal group who protested against a proposed change to send all Southport services to Victoria. They'll probably get vocal if it's suggested the service would be split at Wigan, or if a Victoria continues to Southport instead.