Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[deltic08]

That looks more like renting a train rather than for producing a new fleet.
A long-term contract would likely be reasonable here, as the trains Northern get may well operate for 40+ years.

If they are to last that long, I hope they will all be bimodes to abolish "diesel under the wires". I hope in the next 40-45 years a large proportion of Northern's sphere of operation will be electrified including Settle-Carlisle, Cumbrian Coast and even Whitby but we must do better than electrifying 9 route miles/year for the last 5 years if we are to achieve this.
I agree end gangways would be preferable for passengers but when did the railways last put passengers first?

 

[Mamorin]

I agree end gangways would be preferable for passengers

Wouldn't it also be better for guards? Allowing them to walk-though the whole train instead of being stuck in one unit when units are coupled up?

If they are to last that long, I hope they will all be bimodes to abolish "diesel under the wires".

This tender incudes multi modes which need to have the ability to remove the diesel engines in the future.

So if Northern's plan is to replace its entire fleet then this this new fleet will abolish "diesel under the wires" at least for Northern anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

So if Northern's plan is to replace its entire fleet then this this new fleet will abolish "diesel under the wires" at least for Northern anyway.

Are Network Rail going to enhance the electricity supply to facilitate that?

 

[Mamorin]

All I know is according to the tender any multi modes ordered have to be able to have the diesel engine removed in the future.

 

[bluelagoon8951]

Think northern want 3 and 4 car trains, only 2 car trains that will remain are the 195/0s unless they're ordering extra cars as well.

they're replacing the CAF units. they're also not ordering CAFs for the new ones.

 

[JonathanH]

they're replacing the CAF units

All of them?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Such was the relief on Northern when (a) a decision was made not to go down the "Vivarail Class 230 stock replacement scenario and (b) the actual long-promised final demise of the Class 142 Pacer fleet (aka "Newton Heath's finest") that services using the CAF units seemed like the proverbial "Manna from Heaven".

 

[Neptune]

they're replacing the CAF units. they're also not ordering CAFs for the new ones.

No they’re not. They’re replacing the 15x fleet and it isn’t decided who will build the new units yet.

 

[Snow1964]

Are Network Rail going to enhance the electricity supply to facilitate that?

Northern generally operate 2-4 car trains, a few are longer.
Should be no problem as likely to be 1 - 2 MW (mega watts)

Not talking 5+MW full length express trains, or 6MW freight locos

they're replacing the CAF units.

Not automatically, the tender is sized to allow options to also replace them. Doesn't mean initial batch will include their replacements

A lot might depend on manufacturers offer, highly likely the price will depend on initial minimum, eg initial upto 200 vehicles £X, 201-500 £Y, 500+ £Z per vehicle etc. Tiers of volume discounts, as manufacturers don't want upto 1000 vehicles but only 250 are ever firm, and later batches don't happen

 

[Harvey B]

they're replacing the CAF units. they're also not ordering CAFs for the new ones.

According to who?

 

[Mamorin]

The 195s and 331s are not getting replaced.

In the latest issue of Modern Railways there is an interview with Nick Donovan and Tricia Williams.

In the interview this tender is talked about, its one of Northern's "big six" key priorities and the tender referred to as the "Train replacement programme".

ETCS is mentioned in the interview and the interview says that Northern will retrofit ETCS to the 195s and 331s.

I can't see Northern spending money on retrofitting ETCS to the 195s and 331s just to replace them later.

ETCS is also partly why Northern is replacing its fleet, as acording to the interview fitting ETCS onto Northern's older stock is unlikely to be feasible.

Tricia Williams confirms the 15x fleet will be replaced by this tender if it becomes an order.

Other things are talked about in the interview such as TRU, but thats not relevant for this thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For those not fully conversant with this particular tender but are interested, what are the datelines that are attached to this particular tendering process.?

 

[Mamorin]

DFT gives a indicative contract award date of 2025, and a indicative earliest expected delivery date of 2029 for this tender.

 

[1D53]

ETCS is mentioned in the interview and the interview says that Northern will retrofit ETCS to the 195s and 331s.

They are already fitted, they just need modifications etc.

 

[skyhigh]

They are already fitted, they just need modifications etc.

Similar with 15x too. All the wiring and equipment cases have been installed during the digital mods. It's essentially now plug and play to get them fitted.

 

[Snow1964]

The DfT procurement spreadsheet has been updated for May

It appears the Northern order, now has estimated contract date as 31/12/24, for 180 months, value is £4,500,000,000 Unlikely DfT intends to issue on new years eve, so date is clearly vague, but at least is this year, (not 2025 like most other operators new fleets)

But more intriguing is the reference to choosing by Competitive Dialogue. (The other operators seem to be competitive tender)

Can anyone explain what is meant by Competitive Dialogue

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

 

[Mollman]

The DfT procurement spreadsheet has been updated for May

It appears the Northern order, now has estimated contract date as 31/12/24, for 180 months, value is £4,500,000,000 Unlikely DfT intends to issue on new years eve, so date is clearly vague, but at least is this year, (not 2025 like most other operators new fleets)

But more intriguing is the reference to choosing by Competitive Dialogue. (The other operators seem to be competitive tender)

Can anyone explain what is meant by Competitive Dialogue

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

My understanding is that the award is not based on cold hard tender returns but instead discussions with a number of manufacturers. These might have to pre-qualify based on an outline spec but the dialogue allows a manufacturer to say "if you did x instead of y then it would cost you less" etc as well as exploring different concepts such as bi-modes, battery power etc. without it having to be set in stone.
The cynics might say it allows the DfT to award to Hitachi or Alston without the risk of them being undercut by another manufacturer.

 

[InTheEastMids]

My understanding is that the award is not based on cold hard tender returns but instead discussions with a number of manufacturers. These might have to pre-qualify based on an outline spec but the dialogue allows a manufacturer to say "if you did x instead of y then it would cost you less" etc as well as exploring different concepts such as bi-modes, battery power etc. without it having to be set in stone.
The cynics might say it allows the DfT to award to Hitachi or Alston without the risk of them being undercut by another manufacturer.

I have linked some Government guidance on this, which basically puts more formal language what @Mollman has said in this post. I thought 3.1.2 was worth quoting as addressing *why* this procurement route might be used (my highlights). it is definitely pointing towards the unsuitability of off-the-shelf designs, and perhaps DfT is struggling to specify performance criteria e.g. relating to batteries.
However don't neglect the final bullet around "unacceptable/irregular" - I think Mollman makes a really great point, which I agree with, that tender scoring will be looking for ways to be steer work towards UK factories. So even if Stadler could easily meet the requirement with a 756 derivative (which we don't know), they may have told DfT that they can't provide an "acceptable" tender return.

3.1.2 Cabinet Office policy on the choice of procurement procedure can be found here. In this respect, the Public Contracts Regulations 2015 (the “Regs”) lay down the circumstances in which CD or CPN may be used, namely:
• Where needs cannot be met without adaptation of readily available solutions;
• Where the works, services or supplies include design or innovative solutions;
• Where the contract cannot be awarded without prior negotiation because of the nature of the requirement, the complexity of its legal and financial make-up or because of its risks;
• Where the technical specifications cannot be established with sufficient precision with reference to particular standards; or
• In the case of where only unacceptable1/irregular tenders2 have been submitted in an open or restricted procedure.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60a388b7d3bf7f288b42370c/Competitive_dialogue_and_competitive_procedure_with_negotiation_guidance_note_May_2021.pdf

 

[Harvey B]

The DfT procurement spreadsheet has been updated for May

It appears the Northern order, now has estimated contract date as 31/12/24, for 180 months

So if I'm reading this correctly, the New Rolling stock will be slowly and gradually phased into service over a 15 year period?

 

[Killingworth]

So if I'm reading this correctly, the New Rolling stock will be slowly and gradually phased into service over a 15 year period?

Nearer a 10 year period because the first units won't be operationally ready until about 2030.

 

[JonathanH]

So if I'm reading this correctly, the New Rolling stock will be slowly and gradually phased into service over a 15 year period?

If some of the units are to replace 170s, and others are part of a growth build, introducing over 10 or 15 years isn't a bad outcome.

 

[Mat17]

If some of the units are to replace 170s, and others are part of a growth build, introducing over 10 or 15 years isn't a bad outcome.

The 170s are superb units, it'll be a real shame to lose them. Best trains they've got... far superior to 195s.

 

[Purple Orange]

Looking at the bigger picture, the numbers in the various links suggest it could be 3-car trains. The 15X services are a combination of 2-car or 2x4-car, with the exception of a smaller volume of 3-car units (I think the majority in Manchester are 2x4-car trains. Therefore should this enable an increase from what are generally 2-car or 4-car services to 3-car and mostly 6-car services?

 

[The exile]

Looking at the bigger picture, the numbers in the various links suggest it could be 3-car trains. The 15X services are a combination of 2-car or 2x4-car, with the exception of a smaller volume of 3-car units (I think the majority in Manchester are 2x4-car trains. Therefore should this enable an increase from what are generally 2-car or 4-car services to 3-car and mostly 6-car services?

Or, cynically, a reduction from 4 car to 3 car!

 

[Wolfie]

Or, cynically, a reduction from 4 car to 3 car!

Ratter depends on carriage length too...

 

[Purple Orange]

Or, cynically, a reduction from 4 car to 3 car!

If that was the case, there would be a huge surplus of units procured that wouldn’t be used. The total Northern fleet size is in the region of 370 trains (including the 17 323s from WM), of which the 15X fleet is 204 strong. So if a one-for-one replacement of the 15X units are procured of 3-car train lengths, it would suggest a continuation of running double units where there are currently 2x4-car trains running.

 

[Neptune]

Or, cynically, a reduction from 4 car to 3 car!

The order will be a combination of 3 car and 4 car units.

 

[Killingworth]

The order will be a combination of 3 car and 4 car units.

Has that much detail been confirmed yet? It is a long design process before specific orders leaving time for changes.

 

[Neptune]

Has that much detail been confirmed yet? It is a long design process before specific orders leaving time for changes.

You’ll have to trust that that’s the plan. I can’t go into further detail at this time but rest assured it won’t be too long a wait now.

 

[jonesy3001]

So will the 195s and 331s stay at northern or will they be cascaded as well?
Or is it just wibble I'm reading on wnxx?