Northern timetable changes May 2019

[racklam]

Possibly as many as 10% of passengers from Sheffield are going through to the Airport, passengers to far flung parts, but also pilots, cabin crew and ground staff commute. Breaking that link would go down very badly now it's well established.

Is there platform capacity to leave three cars at Piccadilly and pick them up again on the way back to Cleethorpes? Or would the need to use the same platform on both journeys be too constraining?

 

[Chester1]

TfGM have stated an unfunded aspiration, and it's nothing more than that, in their vision for 2040 to create a Wythenshawe loop, and extend Metrolink beyond the airport to Wilmslow (amongst other things). This is shown in the map attached.
While this would have enormous implications for what is now Northern, if the franchise (or even franchising at all) still exists in 2040, it's all a bit beyond solving the immediate problem of where to terminate all these trains when there's so little terminal capacity in/around Manchester.

Its more than an aspiration. TfGM submitted an application for central government funding in January. Its likely that it will be approved and that work will start soon after Trafford Park Line opens.

The Metrolink platform is only 56m long - too short for heavy rail use. It cannot be extended because the centre abutment of the overbridge carrying Outwood Lane is in the way. This road is a major artery through the Airport and it was very disruptive when the bridge was modified during construction of the Metrolink line.

TfGM has plans for several near term "pathfinder" tram-train projects, one of which will be from the Airport to Wilmslow. I assume the tram-trains will be dual voltage and will use the second Metrolink platform, with a new crossover to the heavy rail line just past the end of P4.

It would be possible to fit in a platform for 3x 23m units. There are a few metres before the bridge and a few metres at the other end. The (Metrolink) Airport Line would be limited to 10tph like the Altrincham line on the Navigation Road single section. Its not necessarily a good idea but its possible without spending much money.

Is there platform capacity to leave three cars at Piccadilly and pick them up again on the way back to Cleethorpes? Or would the need to use the same platform on both journeys be too constraining?

Its possible but its a waste of capacity at Piccadilly and splitting and joining at Piccadilly and then Sheffield would add to much complication for a reliable service. Providing South Yorkshire with an Airport service and extending to 6 coaches will trump providing one of the local Northern services. It can't happen before the December timetable change but should be done then.

 

[Ianno87]

Its possible but its a waste of capacity at Piccadilly and splitting and joining at Piccadilly and then Sheffield would add to much complication for a reliable service. Providing South Yorkshire with an Airport service and extending to 6 coaches will trump providing one of the local Northern services. It can't happen before the December timetable change but should be done then.

And a rather heroic assumption that at Piccadilly it can be timetabled to use the same platform in both directions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This change will leave the Airport with a 3 hour gap between direct services to Lime Street via Warrington (0653 to 0953). And the first arrival from Lime Street via Warrington will become 0928. Clearly Northern is prioritising commuter capacity over early morning airline passengers.

I was going to say that Warrington also has an Airport service by TfW from Bank Quay, but there's a gap in arrivals from 0504 to 1019 (hourly thereafter).
Liverpool has the EMU Chat Moss stopper arriving at xx52.

 

[Ianno87]

This change will leave the Airport with a 3 hour gap between direct services to Lime Street via Warrington (0653 to 0953). And the first arrival from Lime Street via Warrington will become 0928. Clearly Northern is prioritising commuter capacity over early morning airline passengers.

Now...how many flights actually arrive at Manchester in time for an 0753 or 0853 onward train to Liverpool? This would be arrivals scheduled at or before 0815.

And the subset of those passengers specifically wanting Liverpool?

Virtually none, I'd wager. You might get the first few North America arrivals in this time, but by and large passengers for Liverpool would be happy waiting for the 0953 after clearing passport control, reclaiming bags etc.

In which case, I think Northern are quite right to prioritise the Liverpool commuter flows.

 

[Greybeard33]

It would be possible to fit in a platform for 3x 23m units. There are a few metres before the bridge and a few metres at the other end. The (Metrolink) Airport Line would be limited to 10tph like the Altrincham line on the Navigation Road single section. Its not necessarily a good idea but its possible without spending much money.

I disagree. There is no way the platform could be extended by 13m without demolishing the bridge abutment, which would mean spending a lot of money.

The abutment is tapered, so that the base is much wider than the bridge deck and extends almost to the outer end of the Metrolink platform. You can just about see this on Google Earth 3D view, if you don't want to visit the station in person.

 

[Deerfold]

Now...how many flights actually arrive at Manchester in time for an 0753 or 0853 onward train to Liverpool? This would be arrivals scheduled at or before 0815.

Between 0630 and 0815 there's 28 flights land.

And the subset of those passengers specifically wanting Liverpool?

Virtually none, I'd wager. You might get the first few North America arrivals in this time, but by and large passengers for Liverpool would be happy waiting for the 0953 after clearing passport control, reclaiming bags etc.

In which case, I think Northern are quite right to prioritise the Liverpool commuter flows.

I can't say how many passengers to Liverpool but there's quite a few long distance flights in there.

 

[Greybeard33]

I was going to say that Warrington also has an Airport service by TfW from Bank Quay, but there's a gap in arrivals from 0504 to 1019 (hourly thereafter).
Liverpool has the EMU Chat Moss stopper arriving at xx52.

The Chat Moss stopper takes 1h24 from Lime Street to the Airport, with 21 intermediate stops! Hardly a substitute for the promised Northern Connect service.

 

[Glenn1969]

They include flights from Beijing, Doha, Addis Ababa, Orlando, Punta Cana and Holguin. I am sure there would be some passengers for Liverpool

 

[TUC]

I'm surprised (unless there's a thread I've missed) to see no comments about the changes to the Calder Valley timings from May.

Most hours manage to have a half hour gap from Halifax to Bradford despite 4-5 trains an hour.

Sowerby Bridge has 2 trains an hour to Halifax and Bradford - in most hours these are 7 or 8 minutes apart.

I used to commute from Sowerby Bridge in the 90s when there were 2 trains an hour approximately half an hour apart. Spacings like that might have driven me to start driving.

It is very frustrating. Too much of Northern’s timetable planning seems to be to serve the needs of Manchester and the north west, with everyone else having to fit around it.

 

[Glenn1969]

And Northern has to fit its services around the needs of TPE unless I am mistaken

 

[TUC]

And Northern has to fit its services around the needs of TPE unless I am mistaken

Partly because Northern always seem to take a 'poor me. Better accept what I'm given' approach rather than fighting their corner

 

[Greybeard33]

Now...how many flights actually arrive at Manchester in time for an 0753 or 0853 onward train to Liverpool? This would be arrivals scheduled at or before 0815.

And the subset of those passengers specifically wanting Liverpool?

Virtually none, I'd wager. You might get the first few North America arrivals in this time, but by and large passengers for Liverpool would be happy waiting for the 0953 after clearing passport control, reclaiming bags etc.

In which case, I think Northern are quite right to prioritise the Liverpool commuter flows.

The bigger issue is that the 0613 from Lime Street will go to Wilmslow, bypassing the Airport, and the 0709 from Lime Street will terminate at Oxford Road. The first direct service via Warrington will be the 0816 from Lime Street, not arriving at the Airport until 0928. So Airport and Airport City workers commuting from Merseyside and Warrington, as well as passengers for early morning flights, will have to change in Manchester.

 

[Bovverboy]

Relative to the number of passengers actually travelling to/from the airport rail station I think there's abundant platform capacity. There's never going to be a direct train from the airport to everywhere, some passengers will always have to change trains en route. The next thing we know there are going to be screams as to why there aren't direct services to the airport from places like Hadfield, Rose Hill Marple, etc.

As to how many people are likely to want to travel to the airport from those places, the answer is likely to be, more than those from Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

[Chester1]

I disagree. There is no way the platform could be extended by 13m without demolishing the bridge abutment, which would mean spending a lot of money.

The abutment is tapered, so that the base is much wider than the bridge deck and extends almost to the outer end of the Metrolink platform. You can just about see this on Google Earth 3D view, if you don't want to visit the station in person.

I happened to be going to the airport after you posted on Saturday so had a look. Metrolink platforms are 60m, its double units that are 56m. I think theres 2m between the end of the abutment and the platform but that could be altered at a high cost and with disruption. You can walk around the end of the Metrolink platforms so thats another 3m. It depends on cost, altering the abutment and moving the wall at the other end would be expensive but its doable to get a 70m platform without replacing the bridge or knocking down the main station building. I don't think its is worth it but its doable.

 

[js1000]

The bigger issue is that the 0613 from Lime Street will go to Wilmslow, bypassing the Airport, and the 0709 from Lime Street will terminate at Oxford Road. The first direct service via Warrington will be the 0816 from Lime Street, not arriving at the Airport until 0928. So Airport and Airport City workers commuting from Merseyside and Warrington, as well as passengers for early morning flights, will have to change in Manchester.

Maybe the peak mornings loadings between Manchester and the Airport aren't particularly strong either. I've been on the Liverpool via Warrington service numerous times and it's busy between Warrington and Manchester but there is a noticeable drop once past Piccadilly. There are enough services to the Airport that is shouldn't be much of a problem to connect and catch the one behind. At the same time Northern can pick up some of the commuters from Wilmslow and offer the fastest commute into Manchester on new trains in the coming months. I think it's a canny move but we'll see how it goes.

 

[Glenn1969]

Does Liverpool actually need an Airport service given that it has its own Airport with many shorthaul destinations in Europe?

 

[driver_m]

Does Liverpool actually need an Airport service given that it has its own Airport with many shorthaul destinations in Europe?

Have you ever been to Liverpool? If you had, you wouldn’t even ask that question? Huge numbers of foreign tourists and Students in the city alone. Locals need Manchester for Long Haul and Package Holiday market that don’t serve Speke.

 

[Greybeard33]

Maybe the peak mornings loadings between Manchester and the Airport aren't particularly strong either. I've been on the Liverpool via Warrington service numerous times and it's busy between Warrington and Manchester but there is a noticeable drop once past Piccadilly. There are enough services to the Airport that is shouldn't be much of a problem to connect and catch the one behind. At the same time Northern can pick up some of the commuters from Wilmslow and offer the fastest commute into Manchester on new trains in the coming months. I think it's a canny move but we'll see how it goes.

Northern's website bills this Northern Connect route as Liverpool - Warrington Central - Manchester - Manchester Airport. It is supposed to provide a fast, comfortable inter-urban service, not compete for commuters to Manchester from a small Cheshire town that is already well served.

I doubt that the TPE service from Sheffield is well loaded either between Piccadilly and the Airport. Why should Sheffield have priority over Liverpool for direct services to the Airport? The TPE service could easily terminate at Piccadilly instead of reversing back out to the Airport. The 185 could then be picked up by the 0653 Airport to Cleethorpes (0718 from Piccadilly) to strengthen it to 6 cars between Piccadilly and Sheffield.

 

[Mathew S]

Northern's website bills this Northern Connect route as Liverpool - Warrington Central - Manchester - Manchester Airport. It is supposed to provide a fast, comfortable inter-urban service, not compete for commuters to Manchester from a small Cheshire town that is already well served.

I doubt that the TPE service from Sheffield is well loaded either between Piccadilly and the Airport. Why should Sheffield have priority over Liverpool for direct services to the Airport? The TPE service could easily terminate at Piccadilly instead of reversing back out to the Airport. The 185 could then be picked up by the 0653 Airport to Cleethorpes (0718 from Piccadilly) to strengthen it to 6 cars between Piccadilly and Sheffield.

I think that's a bit naive. The inter-urban market, in the morning peak especially, is largely made up of commuters, both regular and occasional. Northern Connect needs to cater both for that market, and for off-peak discretionary travellers.
On your other point, the advantage of running the Sheffield TPE service to the airport rather than terminating it at Piccadilly is that it doesn't block a platform at Picc (which is much more valuable space than at the airport). Liverpool passengers get a connection to the airport with a single, same platform, change at Picc. It's not perfect, but the railway will never be perfect, and it seems like a sensible and pragmatic compromise to me.

 

[Alfie1014]

Newcastle to Hexham is now 3tph (2tph to Carlisle). Weirdly, the class 1 Carlisle services are the slows, with the class 2s being the expresses! The 18:10 now terminates at Prudhoe, so there's been a peak service deduction beyond there. The general pattern through the day is Middlesbrough (and beyond) to Hexham, Newcastle to Carlisle and Morpeth to Carlisle. Same in the opposite direction.

I was quite surprised to see the 3 trains per hour service, especially to Prudhoe where I visit on occasion! Makes the 2tph on my electrified local line seem somewhat measly!

 

[Wtloild]

How well-used is the metrolink service into the airport?
Always seemed strange to me that they built the airport extension, when the airport was already served by a much faster heavy rail service.

 

[Deerfold]

How well-used is the metrolink service into the airport?
Always seemed strange to me that they built the airport extension, when the airport was already served by a much faster heavy rail service.

The point was more getting airport workers relatively short distances to the airport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The point was more getting airport workers relatively short distances to the airport.

Indeed so. Many of the areas of Wythenshawe are served by the Manchester Metrolink Airport Line for that very reason.

 

[Mathew S]

How well-used is the metrolink service into the airport?
Always seemed strange to me that they built the airport extension, when the airport was already served by a much faster heavy rail service.

As others have said, it's well used but mostly by airport staff. Passengers will always prefer the more than twice as fast train service, or just drive.

 

[Camden]

Airport staff from areas like Wythenshawe could just get the bus, or cycle. The extension of Metrolink to the airport was strategic. The interest not in reaching the airport, but instead in positioning for a then seemingly logical expansion through it, including connecting up to the HS2 station. Connectivity which would never be considered otherwise. This is the way Manchester gets all its things.

 

[Ianno87]

It's really about giving Wythenshawe a rail connection to Manchester City Centre. And once you've got that far, might as well connect it that little bit further to the Airport.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think that's a bit naive. The inter-urban market, in the morning peak especially, is largely made up of commuters, both regular and occasional. Northern Connect needs to cater both for that market, and for off-peak discretionary travellers.
On your other point, the advantage of running the Sheffield TPE service to the airport rather than terminating it at Piccadilly is that it doesn't block a platform at Picc (which is much more valuable space than at the airport). Liverpool passengers get a connection to the airport with a single, same platform, change at Picc. It's not perfect, but the railway will never be perfect, and it seems like a sensible and pragmatic compromise to me.

Good points. In which case I will resurrect my previous proposal from another thread.

Scrap the Northern Connect Liverpool - Airport and redeploy the 195s elsewhere. Instead divert the TPE Cleethorpes service to run to Liverpool via Warrington instead of to the Airport, using the paths of the Northern service (the timings at Piccadilly match up within a few minutes). This would free up the Piccadilly platforms currently used for the reversals; the Cleethorpes trains would call at P13/14 in the slots of the scrapped Northern Connect.

With the rumoured transfer of Liverpool - Nottingham from EMT to TPE, Liverpool and Sheffield would then have an (almost) clockface 2tph direct TPE service, which could be worked by 6-car 185s. Airport passengers to/from both cities would have a quick and easy same or cross platform change at Piccadilly P13/14.

Removal of the two services from the Airport line would ease Airport platform constraints and reduce diesels under the wires, while leaving a perfectly adequate 7tph between Piccadilly and the Airport, more evenly spaced. A couple of the remaining Airport services would have to take over the Mauldeth Road and E Didsbury calls to maintain frequency at those stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Scrap the Northern Connect Liverpool - Airport and redeploy the 195s elsewhere. Instead divert the TPE Cleethorpes service to run to Liverpool via Warrington instead of to the Airport, using the paths of the Northern service (the timings at Piccadilly match up within a few minutes). This would free up the Piccadilly platforms currently used for the reversals; the Cleethorpes trains would call at P13/14 in the slots of the scrapped Northern Connect.

This has implications for those in the Sheffield conurbation who would lose the benefit of arriving at Manchester Airport with no change required.

 

[tbtc]

Good points. In which case I will resurrect my previous proposal from another thread.

Scrap the Northern Connect Liverpool - Airport and redeploy the 195s elsewhere. Instead divert the TPE Cleethorpes service to run to Liverpool via Warrington instead of to the Airport, using the paths of the Northern service (the timings at Piccadilly match up within a few minutes). This would free up the Piccadilly platforms currently used for the reversals; the Cleethorpes trains would call at P13/14 in the slots of the scrapped Northern Connect.

With the rumoured transfer of Liverpool - Nottingham from EMT to TPE, Liverpool and Sheffield would then have an (almost) clockface 2tph direct TPE service, which could be worked by 6-car 185s. Airport passengers to/from both cities would have a quick and easy same or cross platform change at Piccadilly P13/14.

Removal of the two services from the Airport line would ease Airport platform constraints and reduce diesels under the wires, while leaving a perfectly adequate 7tph between Piccadilly and the Airport, more evenly spaced. A couple of the remaining Airport services would have to take over the Mauldeth Road and E Didsbury calls to maintain frequency at those stations.

Gets my vote - a simple half hourly service from Liverpool to Sheffield with six coach 185s - fewer diesels under the wires - Liverpool still has a direct hourly Airport service (via Chat Moss) - Warrington already has a direct hourly Airport service (from Wales) - simple cross-platform interchanges at Piccadilly (as you say) - would make sense for one TOC to run both of these services (maybe throw in the Northern service from Nottingham to West Yorkshire too).

The Airport branch is lightly loaded (thirty five passengers on average on each Airport departure is a terrible waste of scarce DMUs, given that every hourly service from Piccadilly to the Airport takes around an hour for the round trip) - benefitting regular passengers on their daily commutes is more important than inconveniencing them on their annual trip to the Airport for a holiday - it might mean a handful more taxis over Woodhead Pass heading to the Airport but would remove significantly more cars from the roads on a typical day.

Can't see it happening, mind!