Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[Rail Ranger]

Paul,

The information posted by a member of rail staff re the restrictions from 7th September made no mention of any restrictions on these cards. Northern are to make an official announcement about the restrictions tomorrow (Monday).

 

[Tyke Toper]

Looking at validity ND in NFM19, there is no mention that this is Monday to Friday only. Surely it is not to be effective Saturday, Sunday & Public Holidays also?

 

[fowler9]

I bet you're in a 1% band

I wouldn't make that band so narrow myself.

 

[Merseysider]

Looking at validity ND in NFM19, there is no mention that this is Monday to Friday only. Surely it is not to be effective Saturday, Sunday & Public Holidays also?

NRE is showing several trains on Saturdays and Sundays as valid with off-peak tickets (WGN - MAN, MAN - MAU, SPT - MAN) so I'd assume not.

 

[brompton rail]

I take it the changes come in with the September fares? Sample journey is South Yorkshire for 10/09/14 show the afternoon peak restrictions in place.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Day Rovers? That's an irritant. Especially as I have a stock I have already bought. Can they change the conditions in retrospect?

Wyorks restrictions used to be very confusing until they were (genuinely) simplyfied so all off-peak tickets (including day rovers) were valid after 0930. Looks like a giant step backwards.

I asked Metro about this on twitter. Their reply was they were "not aware of any changes" to Day Rover conditions.

https://twitter.com/MetroTravelNews/status/497761611747426304

A bit of a worry that WY Metro don't seem to know what Northern are up to.

 

[BurtonM]

Well, isn't this a load of rubbish!
I'm rather confused though - is this a TfGM-wide restriction or just Northern? My local station is TPE-managed Stalybridge - are they going to start selling TOC-specific returns to Manchester?
The withdrawal of the CER annoys me. It was a cost effective way to have a night out, even if I missed the last train and got a night bus back, but now, I might as well just get a Dayrider and use the bus both ways (£4 and I can use it on night buses), it runs later too.
Bad move.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Watcher,

I'm afraid that BB21 has confirmed that the above fare will be subject to the Evening Peak restrictions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Burton,

The fares between Stalybridge and Manchester CTLZ are coded "PGM" so will be subject to the Evening Peak restrictions even if you travel on a TPE train.

 

[Moonshot]

Well, isn't this a load of rubbish!
I'm rather confused though - is this a TfGM-wide restriction or just Northern? My local station is TPE-managed Stalybridge - are they going to start selling TOC-specific returns to Manchester?
The withdrawal of the CER annoys me. It was a cost effective way to have a night out, even if I missed the last train and got a night bus back, but now, I might as well just get a Dayrider and use the bus both ways (£4 and I can use it on night buses), it runs later too.
Bad move.

of course what this move does for you is bring the CER in line with the rest of the off peak fares. - £3.30. If you do move to a bus , like you said, there is an all night service anyway, which is something Northern dont offer.

If the fact you are put off by a £1.65 increase to a place where a pint is £4, then maybe a half pint less should balance it

 

[nw1]

What would stop people 'stopping short' on a longer ticket. For example, a passenger going from Bolton to Manchester might buy a ticket to Stockport instead.

OK, trains due to arrive Manchester before 0930 even if they then go on somewhere else. TBH I don't agree with peak-hour restrictions at all - better ideally to lengthen trains to reduce overcrowding instead - but if we have to have them, better to focus them on arrival times at the large cities (in the morning) and only apply to journeys which include the "inbound" section of the train. So on such a train, they could apply to anyone joining the train north of Manchester (including people going on to stockport) but anyone joining the train at Manchester or beyond would be exempt. The train could effectively be two separate services privately, behind-the-scenes, a restricted one arriving Manchester before 0930 which then goes forward as an unrestricted outbound one - but shown as a through working in the passenger timetable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

of course what this move does for you is bring the CER in line with the rest of the off peak fares. - £3.30. If you do move to a bus , like you said, there is an all night service anyway, which is something Northern dont offer.

If the fact you are put off by a £1.65 increase to a place where a pint is £4, then maybe a half pint less should balance it

A pint is £4 in Manchester? In the "expensive" south, well Southampton and rural areas of Hampshire anyway, pints typically range from £2.90 if you're very lucky up to around £3.80. About £3.60 seems to be average. This is for real ale but I think lager is comparable.Not had a £4 pint yet except perhaps in a restaurant.

 

[Merseysider]

OK, trains due to arrive Manchester before 0930 even if they then go on somewhere else. TBH I don't agree with peak-hour restrictions at all - better ideally to lengthen trains to reduce overcrowding instead - but if we have to have them, better to focus them on arrival times at the large cities (in the morning) and only apply to journeys which include the "inbound" section of the train. So on such a train, they could apply to anyone joining the train north of Manchester (including people going on to stockport) but anyone joining the train at Manchester or beyond would be exempt. The train could effectively be two separate services privately, behind-the-scenes, a restricted one arriving Manchester before 0930 which then goes forward as an unrestricted outbound one - but shown as a through working in the passenger timetable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A pint is £4 in Manchester? In the "expensive" south, well Southampton and rural areas of Hampshire anyway, pints typically range from £2.90 if you're very lucky up to around £3.80. About £3.60 seems to be average. This is for real ale but I think lager is comparable.Not had a £4 pint yet except perhaps in a restaurant.

Select wetherspoons in Manc sell pints from £1.75 upwards. Ps the Evening Return's abbreviation is ECD folks

 

[Moonshot]

OK, trains due to arrive Manchester before 0930 even if they then go on somewhere else. TBH I don't agree with peak-hour restrictions at all - better ideally to lengthen trains to reduce overcrowding instead - but if we have to have them, better to focus them on arrival times at the large cities (in the morning) and only apply to journeys which include the "inbound" section of the train. So on such a train, they could apply to anyone joining the train north of Manchester (including people going on to stockport) but anyone joining the train at Manchester or beyond would be exempt. The train could effectively be two separate services privately, behind-the-scenes, a restricted one arriving Manchester before 0930 which then goes forward as an unrestricted outbound one - but shown as a through working in the passenger timetable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A pint is £4 in Manchester? In the "expensive" south, well Southampton and rural areas of Hampshire anyway, pints typically range from £2.90 if you're very lucky up to around £3.80. About £3.60 seems to be average. This is for real ale but I think lager is comparable.Not had a £4 pint yet except perhaps in a restaurant.

I can certainly say the pint I had in Manchester last week was indeed £4

 

[scrapy]

It is many weeks since I made the above posting from information that was given to me in early July a person from TfGM. I have just returned from a 2-week holiday and as it is fast approaching September 2014 and whilst the matter of TfGM-issued ENCTS cards do not affect either myself or my wife, living in Cheshire East as we do, we do have friends who are holders of TfGM-issued ENCTS cards, so I would be obliged to know if there has been any difference in the original information that I was given in early July.

Just to confirm Tfgm issued ENCTS passes will continue to be valid for free travel during evening peak in Tfgm area, in the same way Merseytravel ones are currently valid in Merseyside despite long standing evening restrictions there for fare payers.

For now anyway.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

It does make me laugh when blanket restrictions like "not before 18:30" get blindly imposed on routes where the trains are hourly and depart at xx29. I'm quite sure that the intention isn't to make Buxton pax wait until half seven but they'll try and impose the rule anyway and say "rules are rules". If its London with a train every 10 minutes its less of an issue.....

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....There is no mention of through tickets to Metrolink Zones being restricted by the new rules. So on the face of it you could buy an off-peak return from Wigan to Metrolink Zone E for £7.20. Either tomorrow's announcement by Northern and/or Wallgate booking office should clarify whether that is still valid for return during the evening peak.

Rail to Metrolink tickets are add-ons to the Manchester Stns/Ctlz fare (except for a couple of fares via Altrincham), and thus should have those restrictions from the TfGM area stations and line of route stations previously mentioned.

Looking at validity ND in NFM19, there is no mention that this is Monday to Friday only. Surely it is not to be effective Saturday, Sunday & Public Holidays also?

According to the brief, restrictions do not apply weekends or Bank Holidays.

I take it the changes come in with the September fares? Sample journey is South Yorkshire for 10/09/14 show the afternoon peak restrictions in place.

7th September.

Well, isn't this a load of rubbish!
I'm rather confused though - is this a TfGM-wide restriction or just Northern? My local station is TPE-managed Stalybridge - are they going to start selling TOC-specific returns to Manchester?....

The fares are the same, with the same restrictions, regardless of who sells them. As TPE don't set the 'Any Permitted' fare, they could set a different 'TPE Only' fare if they wished.

 

[craigwilson]

It does make me laugh when blanket restrictions like "not before 18:30" get blindly imposed on routes where the trains are hourly and depart at xx29. I'm quite sure that the intention isn't to make Buxton pax wait until half seven but they'll try and impose the rule anyway and say "rules are rules". If its London with a train every 10 minutes its less of an issue.....
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Grrr....now making it a lot harder to have an easy Friday night out in Manchester. By the time you get to Manchester on the first off peak ticket, you've got all of a couple of hours before you have to get the last train! :roll:

 

[Merseysider]

Grrr....now making it a lot harder to have an easy Friday night out in Manchester. By the time you get to Manchester on the first off peak ticket, you've got all of a couple of hours before you have to get the last train! :roll:

And this example illustrates beautifully how little NT have given this proper thought. Alongside the withdrawal of £4.95 ECD tickets, I would not be surprised to see pax numbers for Buxton drop considerably over the next few months. I hardly see how a half six BUX-MAN can be classed as peak. Utterly defies logic.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Of course the National Rail website doesn't tell you about the Wayfarer day ticket, which is £11 for adults or £6 for anyone aged 60 or over. The Wayfarer appears not to be affected by the changes and the ticket is now available from Northern Rail conductors (or from Buxton booking office when it is open).

 

[Merseysider]

Of course the National Rail website doesn't tell you about the Wayfarer day ticket, which is £11 for adults or £6 for anyone aged 60 or over. The Wayfarer appears not to be affected by the changes and the ticket is now available from Northern Rail conductors (or from Buxton booking office when it is open).

Quick - everyone get a stash of Wayfarers. Northern will be after them next!

 

[muz379]

I understand trying to price leisure travellers off the trains but trying to price commuters off them seems insane,

I dont think this is going to price most regular commuters off the trains as most buy a season or a anytime return anyway as they currently travel in the morning peak anyway .
The only think that would really price commuters off the railway is if season tickets went up an astronomical amount as a result of this new evening peak being introduced as a tactic to try and get people to travel on off peak services from work .I cant see them doing that personally .

The group of people this will price off the trains though are people coming into Manchester in the evening for leisure , Be it to see a show at the theater , go cinema , do a bit of shopping or see a show or concert . These are people that currently dont travel on overcrowded services anyway as they are traveling opposite to the peak flow .


Getting rid of the ECD might also make more people consider alternative transport into Manchester . Take the Fare from Birchwood to Manchester , I have some friends who live there , they use the train to come into Manchester sometimes in the evening because the ECD for them costs the 2 of them £7.20 . Parking In Manchester would cost near to this anyway . Speaking to them today they said that they would consider using the Car more when the ECD is gone as it would now be costing them £14.40 to come into Manchester , they could afford to park in Manchester , and probably cover the fuel costs for this . They sometimes go out in Manchester with their neighbors as well so think if 4 people where traveling the car suddenly is the much more economical choice . And they already use the car to drive to the station so why not just carry on the journey

It may well do.....but I was simply replying to the single point about my own town. I cant deny there are a lot of overcrowded services in the North, and also a lot of empty ones. It would seem entirely rational to incentivise the demand to areas where capacity can absorb it.

But it wont make a shred of difference to shifting demand . and you have even acknowledged that yourself

Isnt it true that when this proposal takes effect , peak time trains would be trains that simply carried either passengers with season tickets or peak single/return tickets irrespective of what the reason they were actually making the journey for?

Exactly , the overcrowding on these peak services is because of commuters .

Commuters already have season tickets or Anytime returns because they come into the cities during the morning peak .

Meaning they will have completely valid tickets to get them home . Meaning no shift in demand to less overcrowded off peak services .

I can certainly say the pint I had in Manchester last week was indeed £4

Definitely need a new drinking hole then . If I got charged £4 for a pint I would swiftly drink up and move on , the only time I remember paying that much is in restaurants ,

 

[TOCDriver]

The whole thing is a complete and utter waste of time. It's not going to ease overcrowding and it's not going to raise significant extra revenue. Anybody with a bit of common sense and a little knowledge of the railway can tell you that.

 

[Crossover]

Well, there seems to have been some mutterings round staff

I purchased an Evening Ranger in Manchester this evening, and at the Picc ticket office, I was asked if I purchased them regularly. I said not but was aware of the planned changes, after which she kind of nodded and pretty much threw the ticket through the gap at me

 

[fowler9]

Well, there seems to have been some mutterings round staff

I purchased an Evening Ranger in Manchester this evening, and at the Picc ticket office, I was asked if I purchased them regularly. I said not but was aware of the planned changes, after which she kind of nodded and pretty much threw the ticket through the gap at me

Sounds like a jewel in the crown of the staff!

 

[Crossover]

Sounds like a jewel in the crown of the staff!

I wouldn't go that far haha

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And this example illustrates beautifully how little NT have given this proper thought. Alongside the withdrawal of £4.95 ECD tickets, I would not be surprised to see pax numbers for Buxton drop considerably over the next few months. I hardly see how a half six BUX-MAN can be classed as peak. Utterly defies logic.

Maybe the restriction should be moved to 1825? Except Patricrioft has a train at 1824, so maybe it should be 1820? Oh, Bolton has a train at 1819, so perhaps 1815 would be better? But wait, Castleton has a train at 1813......

Or perhaps we should forget about consistent, simple to understand restrictions and have 'off-peak trains' or individual times for individual stations!

 

[nw1]

Grrr....now making it a lot harder to have an easy Friday night out in Manchester. By the time you get to Manchester on the first off peak ticket, you've got all of a couple of hours before you have to get the last train! :roll:

Similar to the point I've made before, but why on earth introduce evening peak restrictions on trains *into* Manchester anyway? Is the 18.29 out of Buxton, or even the 17.29 for that matter, really going to be loaded with commuters?

SWT have introduced these sorts of restrictions latelybut at least they focus on trains going into and out of London. There appear to be no restrictions going contra-flow and the restrictions only appear to apply to Waterloo, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/comparetickets.aspx#99417

 

[Tetchytyke]

Or perhaps we should forget about consistent, simple to understand restrictions and have 'off-peak trains' or individual times for individual stations!

Individual stations in the south east with infrequent services have easements allowing "off peak" travel when it is still technically "peak". There's a whole stack of easements just for the Network Railcard, too.

I know Serco just love taking other people's money, but there's no reason why it can't be done here. Same for allowing "contra-flow" journeys with off peak tickets.

The whole situation is a complete mess, but then between the money-grabbers at Serco and the Tory cretins at DafT I didn't expect owt else.

 

[Moonshot]

Individual stations in the south east with infrequent services have easements allowing "off peak" travel when it is still technically "peak". There's a whole stack of easements just for the Network Railcard, too.

I know Serco just love taking other people's money, but there's no reason why it can't be done here. Same for allowing "contra-flow" journeys with off peak tickets.

The whole situation is a complete mess, but then between the money-grabbers at Serco and the Tory cretins at DafT I didn't expect owt else.

Have you got any examples of that ? If so , can you give an example of a south east station that is of the same mileage away from London as Buxton is to Manchester. I m not doubting what you say by the way , I d just like to see an example for comparison.

 

[northwichcat]

How would evening peak periods price commuters off? I don't know many commuters whose jobs starts well in excess of 10am in the morning and finishes at between 16:00 and 18:30. Most commuters buy returns in morning peak so their tickets would be valid anytime after that

It could well affect a large number of part time workers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The best example is for the Network Railcard, which is not valid for use before 10am. This is the list of easements: http://www.network-railcard.co.uk/time-restrictions

The mos extreme example is that you can use your Network Railcard from Worcester as early as 08.26.