Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[craigwilson]

I wonder how many guards would actually enforce the peak restrictions on a 18:29 service given it is 1 minute before the end of the peak . and it will cause more argument than it is worth excessive every single ticket .

Yes, given that they already (from my experience) sell Evening Returns at the station for that service, and I've never come across a guard that hasn't passed them as valid on the train, even though they aren't officially valid till 18:30.

 

[northwichcat]

There has been the odd occasion when a service has been timed to depart a station at something like 9:28 or 9:29 but we have been late so I have stopped issuing peak tickets or let people use their concessionary passes .

Pre-2008 when Northern had a Northwich-Blackpool service departing at 09:33 which switched to 09:29 during leaf-fall season they instructed ticket office staff and conductors that Wayfarer tickets were only valid from Lostock Gralam onwards and any one boarding with one on the 09:29 departure at Northwich needed to buy a Northwich-Lostock Gralam single as well.

 

[muz379]

Pre-2008 when Northern had a Northwich-Blackpool service departing at 09:33 which switched to 09:29 during leaf-fall season they instructed ticket office staff and conductors that Wayfarer tickets were only valid from Lostock Gralam onwards and any one boarding with one on the 09:29 departure at Northwich needed to buy a Northwich-Lostock Gralam single as well.

They can instruct them as to whatever they want but it does not mean that conductors and ticket office staff on the front line will actually enforce the rules in a consistent manner . I wonder how many guards used to the service departing at 09:33 and where therefore always selling cheaper tickets just went on auto and sold cheaper tickets .

Yes, given that they already (from my experience) sell Evening Returns at the station for that service, and I've never come across a guard that hasn't passed them as valid on the train, even though they aren't officially valid till 18:30.

The reasons I have done it is often because the service is running 1 or 2 minutes late I just look at my watch and forget that the departure time was earlier , like If I look at my watch and it is Half 6 then I just automatically sell the cheaper ticket

 

[nw1]

Pre-2008 when Northern had a Northwich-Blackpool service departing at 09:33 which switched to 09:29 during leaf-fall season they instructed ticket office staff and conductors that Wayfarer tickets were only valid from Lostock Gralam onwards and any one boarding with one on the 09:29 departure at Northwich needed to buy a Northwich-Lostock Gralam single as well.

That really does seem to be taking the p*ss. Seeing as the time is only adjusted due to the leaf-fall, surely they can grant an easement on that one? Presumably (don't know) the next train wasn't until 10.29?

Rather than absolute time it would be better if it was arrival time at destination as these sort of anomalies would not occur. What about defining off-peak as trains due to arrive Manchester after 0930? (I doubt post-0930 can seriously be considered morning peak still as most normally have to be in work before then)

 

[Moonshot]

That really does seem to be taking the p*ss. Seeing as the time is only adjusted due to the leaf-fall, surely they can grant an easement on that one? Presumably (don't know) the next train wasn't until 10.29?

Rather than absolute time it would be better if it was arrival time at destination as these sort of anomalies would not occur. What about defining off-peak as trains due to arrive Manchester after 0930? (I doubt post-0930 can seriously be considered morning peak still as most normally have to be in work before then)

That would seem a rational thing to do, and also make the evening peak trains departing Manchester 4.30pm to 6pm.

 

[brompton rail]

That would seem a rational thing to do, and also make the evening peak trains departing Manchester 4.30pm to 6pm.

So how would that work for journeys in South Yorkshire or West Yorkshire? Remember the afternoon restriction will apply to all of the PTE areas except Merseyside (I.e. SY, WY and Tyne & Wear).

To choose arrival at one destination that fixes the Peak/Off Peak times wouldn't work in South Yorkshire, and would be problematic in West Yorkshire.

 

[Moonshot]

So how would that work for journeys in South Yorkshire or West Yorkshire? Remember the afternoon restriction will apply to all of the PTE areas except Merseyside (I.e. SY, WY and Tyne & Wear).

To choose arrival at one destination that fixes the Peak/Off Peak times wouldn't work in South Yorkshire, and would be problematic in West Yorkshire.

It may well do.....but I was simply replying to the single point about my own town. I cant deny there are a lot of overcrowded services in the North, and also a lot of empty ones. It would seem entirely rational to incentivise the demand to areas where capacity can absorb it.

 

[northwichcat]

That really does seem to be taking the p*ss. Seeing as the time is only adjusted due to the leaf-fall, surely they can grant an easement on that one? Presumably (don't know) the next train wasn't until 10.29?

I think one was very slightly more than an hour after, but the 09:29 was the only direct northbound service to Salford/Bolton/Preston/Blackpool. If you were doing Northwich-Bolton then going an hour later would have involved a change.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Rather than absolute time it would be better if it was arrival time at destination as these sort of anomalies would not occur. What about defining off-peak as trains due to arrive Manchester after 0930? (I doubt post-0930 can seriously be considered morning peak still as most normally have to be in work before then)

What would stop people 'stopping short' on a longer ticket. For example, a passenger going from Bolton to Manchester might buy a ticket to Stockport instead.

 

[northwichcat]

What would stop people 'stopping short' on a longer ticket. For example, a passenger going from Bolton to Manchester might buy a ticket to Stockport instead.

For VWC the restrictions apply to arrival/departure times at Euston and if you're, for instance, doing Manchester to Brighton Route: London on an off-peak ticket then you face the same restrictions as if you have a Manchester to London off-peak ticket, so the same could apply to Northern.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For VWC the restrictions apply to arrival/departure times at Euston and if you're, for instance, doing Manchester to Brighton Route: London on an off-peak ticket then you face the same restrictions as if you have a Manchester to London off-peak ticket, so the same could apply to Northern.

So you might say something like "not valid to arrive in Manchester before 0945"? Why not just say something like "not valid before 0930"?

 

[fowler9]

I understand trying to price leisure travellers off the trains but trying to price commuters off them seems insane,

 

[Moonshot]

I understand trying to price leisure travellers off the trains but trying to price commuters off them seems insane,

Unless I have missed something, how are commuters being priced off trains?

 

[fowler9]

Unless I have missed something, how are commuters being priced off trains?

Introducing evening peak fairs would arguably do so.

 

[northwichcat]

So you might say something like "not valid to arrive in Manchester before 0945"? Why not just say something like "not valid before 0930"?

If you change 09:45 back to 09:30 as nickw1 originally suggested it makes a big difference. At Northwich, for instance, it would make the 08:30 departure the first off-peak train to Manchester instead of the 09:30 departure, bringing Northwich in line with Buxton for morning peak restrictions.

 

[Moonshot]

Introducing evening peak fairs would arguably do so.

well that would really depend on what their working hours were.....always assuming they didnt have a season ticket of course.

Isnt it true that when this proposal takes effect , peak time trains would be trains that simply carried either passengers with season tickets or peak single/return tickets irrespective of what the reason they were actually making the journey for?

 

[northwichcat]

Introducing evening peak fairs would arguably do so.

In the case of Buxton-Manchester they made off-peak tickets valid on the 08:27 Buxton-Manchester service because they thought otherwise people would drive to Hazel Grove and catch a later off-peak train. (Although I don't know why they didn't think the same thing would happen with people from Northwich/Knutsford/Chelford etc. driving to Altrincham/Wilmslow.)

That's resulted in many Buxton commuters on flexitime travelling on off-peak tickets to Manchester and starting work at 9.45/10am. Although, some of them will likely return on the 18:21 Manchester-Buxton which will soon be classed as a 'peak' train, meaning they'll have to either buy a peak ticket or go home half-an-hour later.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you change 09:45 back to 09:30 as nickw1 originally suggested it makes a big difference. At Northwich, for instance, it would make the 08:30 departure the first off-peak train to Manchester instead of the 09:30 departure, bringing Northwich in line with Buxton for morning peak restrictions.

nickw1 made comment that changing from departure time to arrival time would solve the issue of the departure time falling in to a 'peak time', but what is the point if the arrival time could shift as much as the departure time?

 

[craigwilson]

Introducing evening peak fairs would arguably do so.

Not really, because those kind of people will (generally) have done their outward journey during the morning peak, so have an Anytime ticket/season anyway.

 

[TOCDriver]

Introducing evening peak fairs would arguably do so.

How would evening peak periods price commuters off? I don't know many commuters whose jobs starts well in excess of 10am in the morning and finishes at between 16:00 and 18:30. Most commuters buy returns in morning peak so their tickets would be valid anytime after that

 

[WatcherZero]

O.o This new fare system is total fail!

Wigan to Manchester off peak return for my usual journey times goes from £4.20 to £9.10.

But if I buy my return ticket as from Upholland rather than Wigan it becomes £6.10 return but £12.00 as two singles??

Parbold is £6.30 single/£12.90 return, but another anomaly is two peak singles is £12.40 cheaper than the £12.90 peak return?

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Greater-Manchester-Rail-Tickets-Area-Map.pdf

Edit: Fares being offered by NRE.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Watcher,

You need to become a Station Adopter for Northern. We adopters get a free pass for Northern which can be used at any time. Though last I heard (a while ago) there was a waiting list of 145 people.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Watcher,

There is no mention of through tickets to Metrolink Zones being restricted by the new rules. So on the face of it you could buy an off-peak return from Wigan to Metrolink Zone E for £7.20. Either tomorrow's announcement by Northern and/or Wallgate booking office should clarify whether that is still valid for return during the evening peak.

 

[Merseysider]

I think many will continue buying off-peak tickets and paying the excess when asked to do so, especially at stations without ticket barriers.

Agreed.

Can RPI's fine passengers or charge penalty fares if they use an off-peak ticket on a peak time train? Or can they only charge the excess?

Nope, they can only charge the excess, and there is no penalty for doing so on-board as opposed to before travel.

I can see the situation at Man Pic all too clearly. STM staff told "no off peak tickets" but not correctly taught how to do excess tickets.

Also, for anyone holding a 16-25 railcard, it'll become cheaper to buy a full price peak single in the morning, then a railcard discounted peak single in the afternoon.

I won't continue to use the train for my daily journey if the bus is suddenly cheaper, and I doubt I'd be the only one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no mention of through tickets to Metrolink Zones being restricted by the new rules. So on the face of it you could buy an off-peak return from Wigan to Metrolink Zone E for £7.20. Either tomorrow's announcement by Northern and/or Wallgate booking office should clarify whether that is still valid for return during the evening peak.

A quick search on London Midland's journey planner reveals that off-peak tickets from Wilmslow to Metrolink City are not valid in the afternoon 'peak'. I this will be indicative of the rest of the Metrolink.

 

[Hadders]

What they could have done with these restrictions is allow the outward portion to be used in the evening peak but prohibit the return portion only.

A bit more difficult to understand granted but it would allow those having an evening out (who usually travel against the commuting flow) to do so and also soften the blow of withdrawing the evening tickets.

 

[fowler9]

How would evening peak periods price commuters off? I don't know many commuters whose jobs starts well in excess of 10am in the morning and finishes at between 16:00 and 18:30. Most commuters buy returns in morning peak so their tickets would be valid anytime after that

Well it happens to me but to be fair of course I am not everyone.

 

[Moonshot]

What they could have done with these restrictions is allow the outward portion to be used in the evening peak but prohibit the return portion only.

A bit more difficult to understand granted but it would allow those having an evening out (who usually travel against the commuting flow) to do so and also soften the blow of withdrawing the evening tickets.

Has any of all this been made public yet? announcements in media etc?

 

[Merseysider]

Has any of all this been made public yet? announcements in media etc?

Not as far as I can see!

 

[Rail Ranger]

I understand that Northern are making a public announcement tomorrow (Monday 11th August).

 

[TOCDriver]

Well it happens to me but to be fair of course I am not everyone.

I bet you're in a 1% band

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since the holders of the TfGM issued ENTCS cards do not need to purchase any rail ticket in the times that travel is deemed allowable for journeys wholly within the recognised TfGM boundary of their acceptance, those passengers will see no difference.

It is many weeks since I made the above posting from information that was given to me in early July a person from TfGM. I have just returned from a 2-week holiday and as it is fast approaching September 2014 and whilst the matter of TfGM-issued ENCTS cards do not affect either myself or my wife, living in Cheshire East as we do, we do have friends who are holders of TfGM-issued ENCTS cards, so I would be obliged to know if there has been any difference in the original information that I was given in early July.