Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[Starmill]

Will passengers travelling to Moston have their first off-peak service at 1926? Seems incredibly harsh.

 

[bb21]

Moston - Manchester Ctlz Off-Peak Day Return,

Restriction : ND

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Valid on trains timed to depart between 0930 - 1600 inc and from 1830 onwards.

RETURN TRAVEL

Any train the same day except those timed todepart between 1601 - 1829 inc

 

[Starmill]

Moston - Manchester Ctlz Off-Peak Day Return,

Poor sods!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another one: will tickets to Kirkby, Rainford or Upholland be restricted I wonder? I assume tickets to Orrell and Pemberton will have to be. This creates the quandary that there will be no journey opportunity after the evening peak.

1614, 1717 and 1747 trains will be barred I assume? The 1747 departure from MCV is the last train, so anyone wanting a day trip to Manchester will need to catch the 1514 home.

Surely that is not fair?

 

[bb21]

All fares Off-Peak Day Returns to Manchester Stns / Ctlz unless stated otherwise.

None for Kirkby, Rainford or Upholland except Duos.

Orrell and Pemberton are both ND as in the post above.

 

[Moonshot]

All fares Off-Peak Day Returns to Manchester Stns / Ctlz unless stated otherwise.

None for Kirkby, Rainford or Upholland except Duos.

Orrell and Pemberton are both ND as in the post above.

All in all, it will have the effect of moving demand to where we can absorb it....though I can see some fun in the first few weeks of excessing off peaks to peaks ....always providing I can get through the train of course

 

[Starmill]

An Anytime Day Return from Orrell to Manchester is £10.20. An Off-Peak Day Return is £4.20.

Hefty excess, no? Just over 140% fare rise? And don't forget these people have no option to travel later, when trains are quieter, because there aren't any.

 

[Moonshot]

An Anytime Day Return from Orrell to Manchester is £10.20. An Off-Peak Day Return is £4.20.

Hefty excess, no? Just over 140% fare rise? And don't forget these people have no option to travel later, when trains are quieter, because there aren't any.

which may not be an issue anyway when Kirkby to Manchester direct services cease and it just becomes a shuttle service between Kirkby and Wigan.....though as to what time that finishes at night I have no idea. Suspect it may be later though.

 

[Starmill]

which may not be an issue anyway when Kirkby to Manchester direct services cease and it just becomes a shuttle service between Kirkby and Wigan.....though as to what time that finishes at night I have no idea. Suspect it may be later though.

Why would that make it less of an issue? What would be the benefit of splitting the service?

 

[Moonshot]

Why would that make it less of an issue? What would be the benefit of splitting the service?

What would be the benefit of splitting the service? I ve no idea....it was Mr Collins who told me that one.....but if that is the plan and the plan comes with an actual increase in services to and from Orrell etc in the evening, then great as far as I can see. So no issue with getting from Manchester to Orrell in the evening if that is what actually happens....just means changing at Wigan, which at a guess would simply involve a 10 yard walk to the bay platform.

 

[Starmill]

What would be the benefit of splitting the service? I ve no idea....it was Mr Collins who told me that one.....but if that is the plan and the plan comes with an actual increase in services to and from Orrell etc in the evening, then great as far as I can see. So no issue with getting from Manchester to Orrell in the evening if that is what actually happens....just means changing at Wigan, which at a guess would simply involve a 10 yard walk to the bay platform.

So you propose evening services to and from Kirkby, with connections at Wigan?

I agree that goes some way to alleviating the present difficulty. However until there is a later service I think it is only right to remove the evening restrictions on Orrell and Pemberton tickets, as otherwise it's far too harsh.

 

[Moonshot]

So you propose evening services to and from Kirkby, with connections at Wigan?

I agree that goes some way to alleviating the present difficulty. However until there is a later service I think it is only right to remove the evening restrictions on Orrell and Pemberton tickets, as otherwise it's far too harsh.

I m not the one proposing it.....simply stating a fact as posted by Mr Collins which is a shuttle service between Kirkby and Wigan. I have no idea of the service details, but at face value it would seem a good idea if that came with a service or 2 a bit later in the evening.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would imagine the inclusion of Warrington is down to TfGM providing a subsidy for peak time strengthening on the stopping services between Manchester and Liverpool. They also subside strengthening on services to Buxton, New Mills and Southport. I'm not sure about Alderley Edge though.

Do these odd-ball local subsidies still apply?
In the FGW direct award, all the local arrangements that had been instituted over the years were all rolled into the new DfT deal.
That was one reason why the premium FGW paid went down.

 

[Merseysider]

I m not the one proposing it.....simply stating a fact as posted by Mr Collins which is a shuttle service between Kirkby and Wigan. I have no idea of the service details, but at face value it would seem a good idea if that came with a service or 2 a bit later in the evening.

Well one benefit of splitting it means it's more likely to run on time (the Kirkby portion). There are already adequate connections from Wigan stations to Manchester so hopefully we'll see a couple of services past half six. Even just a non-stop from Wigan - Kirkby would be better than nothing. Ormskirk - Preston got an additional service or two recently so there's no reason why Kirkby can't.

 

[TOCDriver]

I see free concessionary passes are not restricted! This wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the golden vote would it? The whole thing is a joke. I just cannot see how they will make extra money from this farce.

 

[Starmill]

I see free concessionary passes are not restricted! This wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the golden vote would it? The whole thing is a joke. I just cannot see how they will make extra money from this farce.

You see, common, easy to understand restrictions that apply across the board would be a real simplification. None of this mumbo jumbo that removing cheap tickets is 'simplification'.

If there's one thing I hate, it's a stealthy price rise (which is what this is) being dressed up as somehow good for us.

 

[Merseysider]

You see, common, easy to understand restrictions that apply across the board would be a real simplification. None of this mumbo jumbo that removing cheap tickets is 'simplification'.

If there's one thing I hate, it's a stealthy price rise (which is what this is) being dressed up as somehow good for us.

Other than the 50/50 argument that it'll reduce overcrowding on some services, there really is no "good for us" about the situation. Spoke to rail staff today who also think the changes are "bad". So it's not just us passengers moaning about how expensive it is

 

[muz379]

which may not be an issue anyway when Kirkby to Manchester direct services cease and it just becomes a shuttle service between Kirkby and Wigan.....though as to what time that finishes at night I have no idea. Suspect it may be later though.

I suspect unless network rail are going to pay to man Rainford Box until later the service wont run any later than it currently does .

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. I think there are two separate, distinct strands of argument. One is that there is absolutely no justification for increasing the price of travel when the services that operate are generally very poor, short, old, trains that lack good facilities and run infrequently and at unhelpful times. Passengers look at the service they get and think that the price should go down, not up. So this is a real 'disgrace' move in the majority of people's eyes if it leads to them having to pay more and not get anything whatsoever in return.

The other issue is the one the staff will agree on, which is that it is being done in a stupid, ill-thought out way that will inspire conflict, cause misunderstanding and mistakes to be made and make life more difficult for passengers who want something easy to use from their transport service and the staff whose job it is to try and give that to people.

There weren't many ways you could have made the Northern franchise much worse as a transport system, but this was one of them, and that is all it will do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suspect unless network rail are going to pay to man Rainford Box until later the service wont run any later than it currently does .

That was my thought. And that's got zilch to do with whether the train goes to Manchester or to Wigan.

 

[muz379]

Indeed. I think there are two separate, distinct strands of argument. One is that there is absolutely no justification for increasing the price of travel when the services that operate are generally very poor, short, old, trains that lack good facilities and run infrequently and at unhelpful times. Passengers look at the service they get and think that the price should go down, not up. So this is a real 'disgrace' move in the majority of people's eyes if it leads to them having to pay more and not get anything whatsoever in return.

The other issue is the one the staff will agree on, which is that it is being done in a stupid, ill-thought out way that will inspire conflict, cause misunderstanding and mistakes to be made and make life more difficult for passengers who want something easy to use from their transport service and the staff whose job it is to try and give that to people.

There weren't many ways you could have made the Northern franchise much worse as a transport system, but this was one of them, and that is all it will do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That was my thought. And that's got zilch to do with whether the train goes to Manchester or to Wigan.

Like I said I think this will end up the way the evening peak period at liverpool has ended up . Or the way the "get a ticket campaign" has gone . Guards will be so inconsistent in applying it those that do try and apply it will end up on the sharp end of confrontation and throwing in the towl . Id rather get down the train and sell someone who doesnt have a ticket a ticket then excess every other passengers fare for it being an off peak ticket .

Given that it is only 3 weeks till this is implemented I as a guard with Northern have not been fully briefed on the changes ,I hear someone at work saying there was a notice up but I am yet to see it . and I have seen nothing making customer aware of the changes .


As for Kirkby I am pretty sure the limit on service times there is down to the shifts at rainford box , a signaller is required to give the driver the token . So unless NR want to pay for longer box opening hours even a shuttle service is going to be limited . I dont personally think the shuttle service is a bad idea . But as has been said I dont think it is fair that some stations along the way are going to be forced into peak time travel and it certainly wont shift the demand on the service elsewhere in the way that Moonshot in envisages .

 

[Philip C]

Restriction text for Buxton - Manchester Stns Off-Peak Day Return,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restriction NR
Restriction : NR

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Valid on trains timed to depart between 0815 - 1600 inc and from 1830 onwards.

RETURN TRAVEL

Any train the same day except those timed to depart between 1601 - 1829 inc

Now may I point out that evening departures from Buxton are at 1729, 1802, 1829, 1929 and later. My reading of this is that anyone headed into Manchester for a concert will find that off-peak tickets are unobtainable before the 1929 departure preventing arrival at Piccadilly before 2028 and clearly too late for most evenings out. The obvious response will be to drive to Whaley Bridge where the 1829 can be caught or Hazel Grove where the 1802 can be boarded. Each of these actions reduce the revenue for Northern and once in the car why not drive all the way?

The evening peak restrictions which apply on other TOCs are largely to keep day-trippers off crowded peak trains travelling in the direction of the evening peak load. It is extraordinary that our friends in the DofT have ignored this and are set upon imposing a rare form of punishment on their Northern subjects. The impact is particularly onerous given the relative sparsity of post 1830 services on many affected routes (far less of an issue on Merseyside or generally in the south) making the first post-restriction train uselessly late in many cases.

I have no knowledge of the loadings on northbound evening trains from, for example Buxton, but suspect that seats are generally available. I am, therefore, mystified what purpose is to be achieved by applying fare increases for travel against the peak-flow.

I anticipate a substantial decline in the use of evening trains and ultimately pressure to reduce their number. The impact on evening city life will certainly not be positive.

This further example of Whitehall's heavy hand makes me yearn to have a Scotsman's choice!! I write this as a Mancunian living on the South Coast.

 

[radamfi]

According to the National Rail site, for Stockport to Manchester you can still get a Virgin Only Off Peak Day Return for £2.50 in the evening peak on 8 September and it still shows the £1.65 Evening Return from 1837 onwards.

 

[bb21]

Virgin Only fares are not affected.

 

[greatkingrat]

That is not surprising, the new fares won't be uploaded into booking systems until 28 days before the change date (which is tomorrow). So you all have about 3 hours to stock up on your Cheap Evening Returns.

 

[Crossover]

On the note of Orrell and Pemberton, introducing easements for those services would give rise to some interesting possibilities :P

 

[muz379]

Now may I point out that evening departures from Buxton are at 1729, 1802, 1829, 1929 and later. My reading of this is that anyone headed into Manchester for a concert will find that off-peak tickets are unobtainable before the 1929 departure preventing arrival at Piccadilly before 2028 and clearly too late for most evenings out. The obvious response will be to drive to Whaley Bridge where the 1829 can be caught or Hazel Grove where the 1802 can be boarded. Each of these actions reduce the revenue for Northern and once in the car why not drive all the way?

The evening peak restrictions which apply on other TOCs are largely to keep day-trippers off crowded peak trains travelling in the direction of the evening peak load. It is extraordinary that our friends in the DofT have ignored this and are set upon imposing a rare form of punishment on their Northern subjects. The impact is particularly onerous given the relative sparsity of post 1830 services on many affected routes (far less of an issue on Merseyside or generally in the south) making the first post-restriction train uselessly late in many cases.

I have no knowledge of the loadings on northbound evening trains from, for example Buxton, but suspect that seats are generally available. I am, therefore, mystified what purpose is to be achieved by applying fare increases for travel against the peak-flow.

I anticipate a substantial decline in the use of evening trains and ultimately pressure to reduce their number. The impact on evening city life will certainly not be positive.

This further example of Whitehall's heavy hand makes me yearn to have a Scotsman's choice!! I write this as a Mancunian living on the South Coast.

I wonder how many guards would actually enforce the peak restrictions on a 18:29 service given it is 1 minute before the end of the peak . and it will cause more argument than it is worth excessive every single ticket .

 

[Starmill]

On the note of Orrell and Pemberton, introducing easements for those services would give rise to some interesting possibilities :P

Break of Journey restriction could solve that?

 

[matthewluck]

I think many will continue buying off-peak tickets and paying the excess when asked to do so, especially at stations without ticket barriers.

Can RPI's fine passengers or charge penalty fares if they use an off-peak ticket on a peak time train? Or can they only charge the excess?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Like I said I think this will end up the way the evening peak period at liverpool has ended up . Or the way the "get a ticket campaign" has gone . Guards will be so inconsistent in applying it those that do try and apply it will end up on the sharp end of confrontation and throwing in the towl . Id rather get down the train and sell someone who doesnt have a ticket a ticket then excess every other passengers fare for it being an off peak ticket .

Given that it is only 3 weeks till this is implemented I as a guard with Northern have not been fully briefed on the changes ,I hear someone at work saying there was a notice up but I am yet to see it . and I have seen nothing making customer aware of the changes .


As for Kirkby I am pretty sure the limit on service times there is down to the shifts at rainford box , a signaller is required to give the driver the token . So unless NR want to pay for longer box opening hours even a shuttle service is going to be limited . I dont personally think the shuttle service is a bad idea . But as has been said I dont think it is fair that some stations along the way are going to be forced into peak time travel and it certainly wont shift the demand on the service elsewhere in the way that Moonshot in envisages .

I wonder how many guards would actually enforce the peak restrictions on a 18:29 service given it is 1 minute before the end of the peak . and it will cause more argument than it is worth excessive every single ticket .

As it seems there are many staff who don't bother with the long standing morning peak restrictions on off peak tickets (my morning trains across the Pennines are always littered with Avantix issued SVR tickets issued on Northern services often hours before they become valid and every time I ask the response is always "I got on at X and asked for a return to Leeds / York / Manchester and this is what the bloke sold me") then I have every confidence that most people won't bother with these new restrictions either.

 

[nw1]

I overheard a guard explaining evening peak restrictions on a duo ticket the other day - I might be wrong but I can't recall these existing previously. I presume duos are an unregulated product - therefore allowing immediate imposition if evening peak restrictions?

A little bit of research suggests that duos into/out of major cities now carry an evening restriction of "not valid between 1601-1759". Presumably this gives a good indication of what Northern intend for September?

What's slightly surprising to me is how early most definitions the evening peak starts. Given (in my experience) most people work to 1700, or perhaps a bit later 1730 or 1800, if I had to set a period for the evening peak (not that I agree with evening peak restrictions anyway) I'd have said 1700-1830. Are there really that many people who finish work at say 1545 or even 1615? Certainly the time in which peak "extras" run seems to be roughly that sort of period (a little before 1700 to a little after 1830).

 

[muz379]

As it seems there are many staff who don't bother with the long standing morning peak restrictions on off peak tickets (my morning trains across the Pennines are always littered with Avantix issued SVR tickets issued on Northern services often hours before they become valid and every time I ask the response is always "I got on at X and asked for a return to Leeds / York / Manchester and this is what the bloke sold me") then I have every confidence that most people won't bother with these new restrictions either.

I always Issue peak tickets in the morning peak , but then that is long established and would come as no surprise to the passenger

There has been the odd occasion when a service has been timed to depart a station at something like 9:28 or 9:29 but we have been late so I have stopped issuing peak tickets or let people use their concessionary passes .

My experience of TPE is that they can be quite strict with the having to purchase at the station , on a few occasions outside of peak time I have seen Guards on TPE explaining to people that because they have not bought a ticket before boarding the only ticket they can sell them is the anytime fare .