Northern unable to deliver Sunday service

[td97]

Title says it all. Recent Sundays, especially since the timetable change, have been atrocious for travel across North West Northern routes.

• All Manchester to Wigan via Bolton/Westhoughton cancelled.
• Manchester to Southport via Atherton and Clitheroe trimmed back to 5 services each of which only 2 ran today.
• Barrow/Windermeres have generally been curtailed to Preston or Lancaster.
• Manchester (and Liverpool) to Blackpool have seen various on-the-day cancellations. Noteworthy was 1N63 which skipped Deansgate due to overcrowding (in turn caused by cancellation of the previous service).

Clearly the demand is high and Northern are wholly unable to deliver.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just throwing it out there but I'm under the impression a number of TOCs are starting to struggle with staff isolating due to Omicron... That seems a more likely explanation. At least recently.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Last TWO Doncaster to Sheffield stopping services cancelled. No mention of any alternative transport. Disgraceful.

 

[Spaceflower]

It's as though some beast has had its head cut off and now the tails are trying to eat each other.

Sit back, collar up and listen to this....

 

[Watershed]

Title says it all. Recent Sundays, especially since the timetable change, have been atrocious for travel across North West Northern routes.

• All Manchester to Wigan via Bolton/Westhoughton cancelled.
• Manchester to Southport via Atherton and Clitheroe trimmed back to 5 services each of which only 2 ran today.
• Barrow/Windermeres have generally been curtailed to Preston or Lancaster.
• Manchester (and Liverpool) to Blackpool have seen various on-the-day cancellations. Noteworthy was 1N63 which skipped Deansgate due to overcrowding (in turn caused by cancellation of the previous service).

Clearly the demand is high and Northern are wholly unable to deliver.

Unfortunately with West side drivers not having Sunday in the working week (nor conductors on either side) and it being the weekend before Christmas, it's a rather predicable outcome. There's simply not the resilience built into depot establishments to account for the inevitable issues that arise around these times of year.

Omicron is simply the cherry on top, but frankly there would be loads of cancellations either way.

 

[Bovverboy]

Yesterday (Sunday 19/12/21) the line between Earlestown and Ordsall Lane Junction was closed for most of the day, apparently because of a bridge strike. Chat Moss stoppers were replaced by coaches Earlestown - Piccadilly, other services were diverted. Does anyone know which bridge was involved? It wasn't the one at Patricroft station.

 

[muddythefish]

It sounds as if the railway is giving up on providing any sort of service. What damage is this going to do in the longer term? It's appalling.

 

[janb]

Yesterday (Sunday 19/12/21) the line between Earlestown and Ordsall Lane Junction was closed for most of the day, apparently because of a bridge strike. Chat Moss stoppers were replaced by coaches Earlestown - Piccadilly, other services were diverted. Does anyone know which bridge was involved? It wasn't the one at Patricroft station.

Described as in Eccles.

This incident? M602 Salford forced to shut for over four hours as police investigate ‘very serious collision’ - Manchester Evening News

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2021 ==

As to the original subject. COVID is spreading like wildfire and rail staff are not immune. Seen in other TOCs as well (although industrial relations aspect to TPE/Avanti as well). 17 December 2021 - 3 January 2022 | Check before you travel | Northern (northernrailway.co.uk)

 

[Iskra]

There have been cancellations on the Hallam and Penistone lines too this weekend, mainly affecting evening services seemingly. To be fair, NRE was carrying warnings about potential cancellations all weekend.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As far as I can see, the Settle and Carlisle and Leeds - Lancaster service levels have been largely complete ...... haven't looked today.

 

[MP393]

Yesterday (Sunday 19/12/21) the line between Earlestown and Ordsall Lane Junction was closed for most of the day, apparently because of a bridge strike. Chat Moss stoppers were replaced by coaches Earlestown - Piccadilly, other services were diverted. Does anyone know which bridge was involved? It wasn't the one at Patricroft station.

It was Regent Road roundabout in Ordsall, the roundabout at the end
The M602 where it turns the A57 Regent Road

 

[td97]

As far as I can see, the Settle and Carlisle and Leeds - Lancaster service levels have been largely complete ...... haven't looked today.

The "North West" Sunday issue is more prominent in the ex-First North Western region of Northern. The Manchester/Liverpool/Wigan areas.

I looked up the previous (now locked) thread about Sunday working which is from autumn 2018. Is it safe to assume little (if any) progress has been made with the ambition to include Sunday as a normal part of the working week for driver and conductor grades?

 

[MP393]

As far as I can see, the Settle and Carlisle and Leeds - Lancaster service levels have been largely complete ...... haven't looked today.

Carlisle, Leeds & Skipton who crew those trains are all “East” side depots, with Sundays inside the working week. They’ve had shortages with Omicron but otherwise it’s the west side that comes off worse with it’s overtime reliance

 

[Starmill]

It's usually terrible at certain depots on Sundays in December.

 

[robbeech]

Last TWO Doncaster to Sheffield stopping services cancelled. No mention of any alternative transport. Disgraceful.

Unfortunately this sort of result is rife. Last minute late at night it can of course be difficult to find alternatives but in many cases there isn’t even an attempt, leaving it to the passenger to fend for themselves. Many threads about this sort of stuff nationwide recently. Spreading faster than the virus itself.

It sounds as if the railway is giving up on providing any sort of service. What damage is this going to do in the longer term? It's appalling.

It largely doesn’t matter to them as they are funded securely regardless.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Unfortunately this sort of result is rife. Last minute late at night it can of course be difficult to find alternatives but in many cases there isn’t even an attempt, leaving it to the passenger to fend for themselves. Many threads about this sort of stuff nationwide recently. Spreading faster than the virus itself.

It largely doesn’t matter to them as they are funded securely regardless.

I agree it can be difficult to resource alternatives but the Hull to Sheffield "fast" services continued to run. Special stop orders should have been issued.

 

[robbeech]

I agree it can be difficult to resource alternatives but the Hull to Sheffield "fast" services continued to run. Special stop orders should have been issued.

If anything this makes their attitude worse. They had trains travelling that way (perhaps with the exception of Rotherham but there won’t be any drivers and guards that don’t sign it so it shouldn’t have caused too much hassle) but they have clearly chosen to avoid the delay minutes. I’m not sure if this even makes financial sense to them or not.

 

[Peterthegreat]

If anything this makes their attitude worse. They had trains travelling that way (perhaps with the exception of Rotherham but there won’t be any drivers and guards that don’t sign it so it shouldn’t have caused too much hassle) but they have clearly chosen to avoid the delay minutes. I’m not sure if this even makes financial sense to them or not.

Passengers for Rotherham would have had a wait at Swinton.......of five minutes into a Leeds Sheffield service.

 

[Kite159]

I agree it can be difficult to resource alternatives but the Hull to Sheffield "fast" services continued to run. Special stop orders should have been issued.

Agreed there, especially if it's the last couple trains of the night.

Whats the cost of putting on extra stops compared to forking out for replacement buses or taxis to take passengers back?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Agreed there, especially if it's the last couple trains of the night.

Whats the cost of putting on extra stops compared to forking out for replacement buses or taxis to take passengers back?

The actual cost to the railway should be next to nothing.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Unfortunately with West side drivers not having Sunday in the working week

Wasn't this supposed to be resolved with Sunday becoming part of the working week as part of the current timetable change?

 

[Foxcover]

It’s not just a Covid/December thing though on the west side - Sundays in the Northwest have been dire since mid-September, especially west of Manchester, where Northern, EMR and TPE share the planned service but basically struggle to get one train an hour from each of Piccadilly and Victoria to Liverpool most of the Sundays and EMR simply doesn’t show up at all.

In terms of the damage done, many former railway users I know just drive now at weekends, myself included - it was frustrating and uncomfortable in September and October, and added fear of Covid with the overcrowding now (yes, I know the Covid evidence isn’t there on trains, but it’s how people perceive the risk at the end of the day). That custom will take a long time to win back.

 

[Peterthegreat]

It’s not just a Covid/December thing though on the west side - Sundays in the Northwest have been dire since mid-September, especially west of Manchester, where Northern, EMR and TPE share the planned service but basically struggle to get one train an hour from each of Piccadilly and Victoria to Liverpool most of the Sundays and EMR simply doesn’t show up at all.

In terms of the damage done, many former railway users I know just drive now at weekends, myself included - it was frustrating and uncomfortable in September and October, and added fear of Covid with the overcrowding now (yes, I know the Covid evidence isn’t there on trains, but it’s how people perceive the risk at the end of the day). That custom will take a long time to win back.

It is the same between Doncaster and Sheffield and not just on Sundays. The XC service has all but been withdrawn, the TPE service suffers from cancellations and you will be lucky if both Northern (fast and stopper) turn up.

 

[robbeech]

Agreed there, especially if it's the last couple trains of the night.

Whats the cost of putting on extra stops compared to forking out for replacement buses or taxis to take passengers back?

Well this is the point I make frequently. The cost isn’t particularly relevant because the number of people they’ll end up paying taxis for will be negligible due to them doing their best to avoid it.

* At Doncaster there will be no support from Northern staff, and I’m sorry to say that support from LNER staff for other TOC’s cancellations can be hit and miss. (They’ll often let you travel on one of their services to solve the issue if it helps but that’s no good towards Sheffield).

* At 2200 the social media team are tucked up in bed.

* At small stations between Doncaster and Sheffield at night there are no staff, limited facilities and the help points simply cannot be relied upon.

* If you end up getting your own taxi or bus you’ll almost certainly get an initial rejection for this cost to be relayed from Northern.

* You may need considerably above average knowledge of the rules and regulations and the ability and confidence to assert yourself on the telephone in order to get them to pay out.

* When you claim delay repay it will almost certainly be rejected because there won’t have been a registered journey opportunity so the system will conveniently attempt to get rid of you.

* If you do successfully claim delay repay then in July 2023 they may accuse you of fraud and request you pay them £1000 to stop them calling the police.

As a result of this I suspect if 20 people wanted Stations en route other than Meadowhall that evening then it’s likely that only a handful will even attempt to claim back their bus fare / taxi fare. And it’s almost certain that all of the will be rejected meaning maybe only a couple will push it further.

To conclude, to answer the question “what’s the cost of putting in extra stops instead of taxis?” the answer is it’s more expensive to put in extra stops as the taxi costs will likely be less than the ticket costs of the passengers.

 

[PG]

It largely doesn’t matter to them as they are funded securely regardless.

In theory it doesn't matter at all, as being run by the OLR means no management fee payments which could be contingent upon most services operating.

 

[Goldfish62]

Unfortunately this sort of result is rife. Last minute late at night it can of course be difficult to find alternatives but in many cases there isn’t even an attempt, leaving it to the passenger to fend for themselves. Many threads about this sort of stuff nationwide recently. Spreading faster than the virus itself.

It largely doesn’t matter to them as they are funded securely regardless.

I've noticed recently last trains being cancelled on both SWR and GWR (pre-Omicron). This used to be an absolute no-no.

It's all very well the National Conditions of Carriage stating that operator is obliged to get you to your destination, but trying finding a member of a staff late in the evening, let alone one who can sanction a taxi (assuming any are available).

 

[skyhigh]

Unfortunately with West side drivers not having Sunday in the working week (nor conductors on either side) and it being the weekend before Christmas, it's a rather predicable outcome. There's simply not the resilience built into depot establishments to account for the inevitable issues that arise around these times of year.

Not quite. Conductors on both sides have committed overtime (and before anyone suggests people are pulling sickies to avoid working their booked Sunday - the issue faced is a much higher level than normal of long term sickness, number of people seconded and on other duties and higher level of booked annual leave over the Christmas period. There are very little, if any, people who go sick for a single weekend).

 

[robbeech]

I've noticed recently last trains being cancelled on both SWR and GWR (pre-Omicron). This used to be an absolute no-no.

It's all very well the National Conditions of Carriage stating that operator is obliged to get you to your destination, but trying finding a member of a staff late in the evening, let alone one who can sanction a taxi (assuming any are available).

All rule and regulation that the railway is supposed to stick to with regard to contracts and passenger rights has zero weight. They simply do not have to comply with any of it because there isn’t a person on earth that has the clout to stop them. Sure, changes will be made from time to time but that doesn’t help the passenger on the bench at 0145 in the snow.

 

[AMD]

Conductors on both sides have committed overtime

Drivers on both sides and conductors on the east have booked sundays for which they have to work, west side conductors simply have to put in a not available at least 7 days out and they don't have to work it or get it covered by someone else at all.

 

[Nova1]

and the help points simply cannot be relied upon.

It is really terrible how often late at night at a lot of stations you'll just be connected to National Rail Enquiries somewhere out of the UK, who don't have a clue where you even are and have no way of helping you apart from going "the next train is in six hours"