Northern Weekend Trains between Clitheroe and Hellifield

Roger B

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The line from Clitheroe to Hellifield rarely sees any scheduled passenger workings. For the past few years there's been just one working each way on a Sunday, catering from ramblers, and usually starting from somewhere South or West of Clitheroe and terminating somewhere on the S&C. These have often been cancelled because of stock shortages, or train crew - presumably exacerbated by few drivers signing the route and issues re weekend working discussed elsewhere.

Currently there's scheduled to be a return working from Blackpool North - Carlisle, leaving Blackpool North ay 08.40 (1M46), and returning from Carlisle at 16.48 (1M76). Last Sunday (13th June), 1M46 was cancelled, RTT reporting that "This service was cancelled due to an issue with the train crew (TG)." RTT doesn't show 1M76 at all for some reason for last Sunday, although it is showing for the coming Sunday (20th). Does anyone know whether these trains have ever run since the start of the new timetable, and whether / when it's intended to start running them? I don't really want to shell out for a ticket, only to find out that the train's been cancelled (and I think I'm unlikely to get a refund as the ticket is valid via Leeds). So ideally I'd like to know before I buy my ticket on Sunday morning (at around 07.30) whether 1M46 is running or not. So does anyone know from past experience what time 1M46 is announced as being cancelled, please?

I've only travelled this line once (from Hellifield - Clitheroe), and that was in the dark. On 10th September 1977 I took an excursion from Gloucester to Edinburgh (and back) - for the princely sum of £2 (child fare). This was arranged for people to attend the Edinburgh tattoo. But we had a far better idea: there was a minibus tour of Haymarket, Grangemouth, Eastfield, Polmadie, Hamilton, Motherwell and Millerhill depots - with permits. We spent the evening on Waverley - where a mate of mine (Neil Long) cleared his deltics. Another chap wasn't quite so fortunate. He found out his last shunter was at Fort Bill, and so missed the depot bash - but he did get his shunter.

Anyhoo, back OT.... On the return journey the WCML was closed and so we were diverted over the S&C and Hellifield to Clitheroe and then via Manchester Vic to Stockport (I remember straining to see anything as we passed Longsight in pitch black in the wee hours of the following morning - 11st Sept), and on back to Gloucester. What a day! Ranks as one of my best ever rail trips, with loads of exotic machinery (for a simple country boy!).

If anyone can help with the workings of 1M46 it would be really appreciated - many thanks.
 
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Hardcastle

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I keep a check on the Dalesrail every Sunday it ran May 16th 23rd & June 6th last week 13th June it was cancelled as you say May 30th it ran only part of the route due to engineering work. I did note that the Dalesbus twitter feed anounced on Saturday that it was not running the following day ie the 13th so my advise is to keep a eye on there if you have twitter.
 

Bletchleyite

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You are entitled to a refund if the train you intended to catch was cancelled. It does not matter what the impact of this was.

Buy with an itinerary and they'll do it without argument.
 

Adam0984

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Last Sunday was the first one since the start of the new timetable that has been cancelled. Only a handful of drivers sign Clitheroe to Hellifield, from Hellifield its a Leeds driver. A replacement bus ran from Clitheroe to Hellifield to connect with a later S&C service
 

185

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Just a shame on Suns they can't extend all the Man Vic - Clitheroes to Hellifield.

It's remote, cold and horrid, but operationally (if it's still the same as it used to be) ideal for turning turning trains back without a shunt. 22mins extra running time each way... they'd have to re-time the backworking to Man Vic which currently has a terrible six minute spin time at Vic, this would give an opportunity to make the service more reliable.
 

Kite159

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Just a shame on Suns they can't extend all the Man Vic - Clitheroes to Hellifield.

It's remote, cold and horrid, but operationally (if it's still the same as it used to be) ideal for turning turning trains back without a shunt. 22mins extra running time each way... they'd have to re-time the backworking to Man Vic which currently has a terrible six minute spin time at Vic, this would give an opportunity to make the service more reliable.

Extending to Hellifield will still need an ECS move to Settle Junction due to the track layout not allowing turnbacks.
 

185

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Sure some years back been into there & doubled back - maybe it's changed or the old points are now locked out.
 

30907

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Has the crossover at the east end been taken out?
No, but they are only usable for shunt moves owing to not having facing point locks. Presumably avoiding unlocked points reduces the risk of derailment, which would be a mite inconvenient :)
 

Roger B

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The dalesrail was cancelled today 4/7/21 as no avadible driver.
Thanks Hardcastle. ITV have reported that Northern had announced that they had cancelled Dalesrail and Cumbria trains because of an outbreak of covid, which meant that many staff were either having to quarantine or self-isolate, depending on whether they'd contracted covid, or were considered to be at risk of having contracting covid.
 

Hardcastle

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Thanks Hardcastle. ITV have reported that Northern had announced that they had cancelled Dalesrail and Cumbria trains because of an outbreak of covid, which meant that many staff were either having to quarantine or self-isolate, depending on whether they'd contracted covid, or were considered to be at risk of having contracting covid.
Strange thing i checked the Cumbria coast mid afternoon today & every train seemed to be running between Barrow & Carlisle vv unlike yesterday when nothing ran which seems strange.
 

Djgr

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Strange thing i checked the Cumbria coast mid afternoon today & every train seemed to be running between Barrow & Carlisle vv unlike yesterday when nothing ran which seems strange.
A severe outbreak of socceritis?
 

Llandudno

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I would be surprised - astonished indeed - if the football didn't reduce the will to work optional overtime which would otherwise cover the self-isolation to some extent.
Indeed, I won’t be attempting to use public transport on Wednesday or Sunday this week.

Mind you it’s risky to attempt to use TfW on any Sunday in north Wales during the summer, as it is unlikely you will get a seat…!
 

175001

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I would be surprised - astonished indeed - if the football didn't reduce the will to work optional overtime which would otherwise cover the self-isolation to some extent.
The football probably meant that rest day work wasn't high on my colleagues priorities this weekend, but that of course is our choice.

But as previously discussed on a separate thread, there was staff shortages at Barrow and Blackpool due to Track and Trace pings in the week.

Rest day work would usually cover the work
 

HSP 2

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No, but they are only usable for shunt moves owing to not having facing point locks. Presumably avoiding unlocked points reduces the risk of derailment, which would be a mite inconvenient :)
IIRC not having facing point locks means that you can't send a passenger train conveying passengers over the point without using a point clip so that the point can't be moved until the train has crossed it, then the same for the reverse move.
You also have the crossover on the Clitheroe line that is just south of the station that my have FPLs on it that could work. Did a passenger turn on it about 15 years back don't remember the points having to be clipped.
 

30907

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You also have the crossover on the Clitheroe line that is just south of the station that my have FPLs on it that could work. Did a passenger turn on it about 15 years back don't remember the points having to be clipped.
It's only signalled as a shunt move so I doubt there's a FPL.
 

D6130

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It's only signalled as a shunt move so I doubt there's a FPL.
Correct....there isn't. A passenger service arriving from the Clitheroe direction which required to return in passenger service would need to run ECS to Settle Junction to cross over. In the days before the closure of Hellifield North box, there was a main-to-main crossover at the North end of the stationbut, alas, no longer!
 

30907

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Correct....there isn't. A passenger service arriving from the Clitheroe direction which required to return in passenger service would need to run ECS to Settle Junction to cross over.
Does anyone know why that is done rather than shunt Down Main-Up Main (or Branch) then reverse along the Up into the platform? Would it nowadays require the crew to change ends twice?
(I am recalling the standard double-shunt of the Uckfield service at Oxted in diesel days...).
 

Tomnick

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Does anyone know why that is done rather than shunt Down Main-Up Main (or Branch) then reverse along the Up into the platform? Would it nowadays require the crew to change ends twice?
(I am recalling the standard double-shunt of the Uckfield service at Oxted in diesel days...).
There's no signalled move back into the Up platform from either the Up Main or the Up Branch (it'd require the driver to change ends three times in total if it was a legitimate shunt, but that's not necessarily a problem in itself).
 

30907

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There's no signalled move back into the Up platform from either the Up Main or the Up Branch (it'd require the driver to change ends three times in total if it was a legitimate shunt, but that's not necessarily a problem in itself).
Thanks, hadn't thought of that, obvious now I look at the diagram again :(
 

HSP 2

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Correct....there isn't. A passenger service arriving from the Clitheroe direction which required to return in passenger service would need to run ECS to Settle Junction to cross over. In the days before the closure of Hellifield North box, there was a main-to-main crossover at the North end of the stationbut, alas, no longer!
If the train runs from Clitheroe to Hellifield and arrives in the down platform and de-trains all passengers, it's now an ECS. So it can work over the cross over at the east (Leeds) end no FPL needed. Cross over reversed, back into the up platform.
I would like to ask why do you say that the train has to go to Settle Jct. to change lines when it's an ECS move.

It's all of a bit of a moot point to be honest as the train is supposed to run to Carlisle.
 
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ChrisC

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I used these trains on a number of occasions around 10 years ago whilst doing a North West Rover. Back then there were 2 trains each way on summer Sundays. What I do remember was the large number of rambling groups from stations between Preston and Clitheroe who used these trains each week. I remember them being lovely friendly people and everyone seemed to know each other. One of the trains was regularly 4 carriages and well loaded. These regular users will really miss these trains which can now no longer be relied upon.
 

Tomnick

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If the train runs from Clitheroe to Hellifield and arrives in the down platform and de-trains all passengers, it's now an ECS. So it can work over the cross over at the east (Leeds) end no FPL needed. Cross over reversed, back into the up platform.
I would like to ask why do you say that the train has to go to Settle Jct. to change lines when it's an ECS move.

It's all of a bit of a moot point to be honest as the train is supposed to run to Carlisle.
As above, there's no signalled move back into the Up platform.
 

Hardcastle

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Advance info the Dalesrail is again cancelled Sunday 11/7/21 as i assume the same reason as last week.
 
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Kite159

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If the train runs from Clitheroe to Hellifield and arrives in the down platform and de-trains all passengers, it's now an ECS. So it can work over the cross over at the east (Leeds) end no FPL needed. Cross over reversed, back into the up platform.
I would like to ask why do you say that the train has to go to Settle Jct. to change lines when it's an ECS move.

It's all of a bit of a moot point to be honest as the train is supposed to run to Carlisle.

Wasn't there some services in a pre Covid world which terminated at Hellifield on a Sunday during the winter months?
 

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