Northern- Why Can't we vent anymore?

[Iskra]

Well Northern have got me two days running now. I got back to Chapeltown at 0130 after a 2.5 hour RRB with no toilet. Now, I’m heading to Retford today, but my train back is cancelled. I won’t even be able to claim delay repay as I didn’t buy my ticket until this morning, and they P-coded my planned return service along with many others last night.

 

[Iskra]

133 full cancellations today as of now, a quick scan shows 23 of them not in the north west. Of those 23, 21 of them seem to be Sheffield jobs, so I wonder what’s going on at Sheffield?

It’s not acceptable. But fixing it isn’t easy.

It seems to be related to shortages of guards, as some of the trains are still running, but with no passengers as mine did last night.

 

[Killingworth]

It seems to be related to shortages of guards, as some of the trains are still running, but with no passengers as mine did last night.

That happened on the Hope Valley line on Monday.

Very frustrating(!!) for the lady waiting at Dore with 2 young children and large pram for train into Sheffield for connection to Stockport.

While she waited EMR trains went into Sheffield in both directions, from and to Stockport- but they don't stop at Dore! Her planned Northern service also went through, empty, no guard. (It doesn't go via Stockport hence need to change). She called an Uber and was standing in the rain waiting for it.

That's a west side issue. Conductors.

Sheffield and east side seems to be a driver shortage. Don't all rush, it'll take many months to resolve that but you can apply from this link; https://northern.engageats.co.uk/Va...m1OADlFyWEpHqY0hwg_aem_RreuOo-PGlu9hoIrxY0-WQ

Looking at that no wonder it takes a long time to fill gaps. There's no sense of any urgency.

 

[Peterthegreat]

That happened on the Hope Valley line on Monday.

Very frustrating(!!) for the lady waiting at Dore with 2 young children and large pram for train into Sheffield for connection to Stockport.

While she waited EMR trains went into Sheffield in both directions, from and to Stockport- but they don't stop at Dore! Her planned Northern service also went through, empty, no guard. (It doesn't go via Stockport hence need to change). She called an Uber and was standing in the rain waiting for it.

That's a west side issue. Conductors.

Sheffield and east side seems to be a driver shortage. Don't all rush, it'll take many months to resolve that but you can apply from this link; https://northern.engageats.co.uk/Va...m1OADlFyWEpHqY0hwg_aem_RreuOo-PGlu9hoIrxY0-WQ

Looking at that no wonder it takes a long time to fill gaps. There's no sense of any urgency.

Sorry I don't understand why the Northern service ran through Dore non stop. Services are exclusively manned from the Manchester end so the train is unlikely to run empty Manchester to Sheffield and back.

 

[Iskra]

Sorry I don't understand why the Northern service ran through Dore non stop. Services are exclusively manned from the Manchester end so the train is unlikely to run empty Manchester to Sheffield and back.

Perhaps they didn’t want it sat in Piccadilly all that time, or some driver training was taking place, which presumably can still happen with no guard?

 

[Killingworth]

Sorry I don't understand why the Northern service ran through Dore non stop. Services are exclusively manned from the Manchester end so the train is unlikely to run empty Manchester to Sheffield and back.

Believe me, it did. I saw it with my own eyes, for proof see; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nrOR/2024-12-09/1530-1630?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT

 

[Lewisham2221]

Sorry I don't understand why the Northern service ran through Dore non stop. Services are exclusively manned from the Manchester end so the train is unlikely to run empty Manchester to Sheffield and back.

That is exactly what Northern do in many cases where there is no guard available, presumably to avoid clogging up Piccadilly (maybe to avoid causing too much disruption to any driver training too?). See 2S80/5S80/2S83/5S83 on the below link, for example:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Dore & Totley all day on 09/12/2024

Train information at Dore & Totley all day on 09/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peterthegreat]

Well thank you for correcting me!
Whilst there may be legitimate reasons in running the empty trains (eg driver training) I find it staggering they run an 80 odd mile round trip if it is solely due to "unclogging Piccadilly ".

 

[Killingworth]

Well thank you for correcting me!
Whilst there may be legitimate reasons in running the empty trains (eg driver training) I find it staggering they run an 80 odd mile round trip if it is solely due to "unclogging Piccadilly ".

So do we (non)users!! And not just one train either.

 

[yorksrob]

For me, I've just had my first cancellation (outside of severe weather) for a few weeks, so I'm hoping its a one-off.

Well, that was a forlorn hope - they've cancelled my train home

There's a bug going around my office at the moment. I expect its the same at the depot

 

[Llandudno]

Positive Northern experience. I've used Northern a handful of times on the last year or so. Either Leeds to Skipton or Sheffield to Edale.
Nothing cancelled, delays were minor. Tickets checked, no problem.

I presume those journeys were not made on Saturday evenings or on Sundays…?

 

[Discuss223]

The problems with Northern include: Staffing - far too many services are cancelled or short formed due to a shortage of crew being available. Lack of seating capacity - the Hallam Line Express services from Nottingham & Lincoln mostly operate as two carriage units with a reduction of 18 seats per service in comparison to the units they replaced on this route. A lack of direct services to and from Lincoln and Leeds in the evenings - if people get out there, they usually need to get back at the end of the day. Ticket machines not accepting actual cash - some Northern stations have vending machines that don't take cash payment, what's more, there have been cases where people have assumed as it doesn't take cash that they can buy on-board and found themselves punished by un-relenting RPOs - the machines make no mention of a promise to purchase slip being required until you proceed to the payment method - the casual customer just sees that all the machines are card only and assumes they are of no use to them. And finally, lack of refreshment services and First Class on longer distance services, such as Blackpool to York and Nottingham/Lincoln to Leeds.

 

[156421]

Northern has p-coded the final Barrow to Millom train tomorrow and is giving the "Customers can use their tickets on an earlier service" tone deaf advice as usual. I wonder what will happen when people turn up for the 22:11 train to Millom. Will they be left to fend for themselves overnight to wait for Sunday's first northbound departure (the 09:05) which may itself still also be p-coded or otherwise cancelled??? I'm just glad they seem to have dropped the "people of the north... go do your thing!!!!!" disgusting advertizing slogan.

 

[BG2024]

The 1654 Piccadilly to Lime Street was short-formed today. Friday evening rush-hour train between two major cities, two weeks before Christmas, and they short-form it. Frustrating if it's truly unavoidable, but can it really be true that with hundreds of planned cancellations known about in advance, that doesn't free up capacity to fully-form one of their busiest services?

So, crush-loaded out of Manchester, I knew we were late but it was so crammed I couldn't get my phone out of my pocket to see how late. But it was late enough that they decided to run express from Huyton to catch-up. Not to worry though, as they announced on the PA that there's an ex-Wigan stopper behind us that would mop up passengers for the skipped stations. Except once we'd been turfed out onto the platform at Huyton, we found out that the stopper had been sent ahead. The train we'd left so it could be "direct" was now crawling along behind it, not making up any of it's lost time, having inconvenienced us all for nothing.

Even that shouldn't have been a big problem: it's 6pm on a busy commuter route so there are plenty of other services in the timetable. But of the next four Lime Street trains, three were already cancelled and the other doesn't stop at Broad Green. There was a weird ghost train showing on RTT but it wasn't on the screens at Huyton so no idea if it was actually running.

At that point - much like everyone who works for Northern - I just gave up. An hour's walk home is preferrable to another minute on Northern.

The frustration comes from them just not caring. I get that there are real problems with staffing and infrastructure, but I don't get the faintest impression that anyone is interested in trying to make the most of what they've got. They aren't even "playing a bad hand poorly"; they are folding the hand because they can walk away with the chips anyway.

 

[Amos]

Received an email from northern today about the timetable change.It stated that “we’ve updated our schedule to deliver a convenient experience for our customers”.I am sure we will all look forward to this convenient experience.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Northern are currently showing 504 cancellations.

 

[yorksrob]

Put in for delay repay with them three weeks ago. Like Diana Ross, I'm still waiting.

 

[BG2024]

Northern are currently showing 504 cancellations.

Even that figure materially downplays the scale of the problems. For example, lots of tomorrow's Barrow-Manchester Airport services are now Barrow-Preston, so they are significantly curtailed but aren't counted among the cancellations.

 

[Lampshade]

Utter disgrace again today.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Shambolic between Barnsley and Sheffield this morning. Due to a mysterious "safety inspection" between Wakefield and Barnsley all the Leeds stoppers were diverted via Deane, leaving just the hourly Huddersfield-Sheffield stopper when there should be four trains an hour between Barnsley and Sheffield.

But it gets worse as Northern thought it would be a jolly wheeze to cancel 3 out of 4 of the Huddersfield - Sheffield trains; the 0709, 0808 and 1009 all cancelled at Huddersfield, meaning just one train ran between Barnsley and Sheffield in 4 hours on one of the busiest Saturdays of the year! Utterly pathetic.

 

[Adam0984]

Shambolic between Barnsley and Sheffield this morning. Due to a mysterious "safety inspection" between Wakefield and Barnsley all the Leeds stoppers were diverted via Deane, leaving just the hourly Huddersfield-Sheffield stopper when there should be four trains an hour between Barnsley and Sheffield.

But it gets worse as Northern thought it would be a jolly wheeze to cancel 3 out of 4 of the Huddersfield - Sheffield trains; the 0709, 0808 and 1009 all cancelled at Huddersfield, meaning just one train ran between Barnsley and Sheffield in 4 hours on one of the busiest Saturdays of the year! Utterly pathetic.

There's a sinkhole opened up between Barnsley and Darton yesterday afternoon so all services towards Leeds can't run via Barnsley so are diverting yesterday afternoon and today. Hopefully be back open tomorrow

 

[startingaparty]

No south-bound trains from Chorley until 1139 this morning. Absurd. I pity anyone who has to get to work this morning.

Does anyone know why a 'DO NOT TRAVEL' warning hasn't been issued?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

There's a sinkhole opened up between Barnsley and Darton yesterday afternoon so all services towards Leeds can't run via Barnsley so are diverting yesterday afternoon and today. Hopefully be back open tomorrow

And on the way home from Sheffield yesterday evening Northern decided that rather than put on their standard 3 coach 150s, they'd run 2 coach units instead meaning trains to Barnsley were rammed and leaving people behind at Sheffield and Meadowhall.

Sometimes you have to wonder; are Northern deliberately running as poor a service as possible to deter people from travelling?

 

[156421]

I see that of the 13 timetabled services today from Lancaster to Barrow (some start at Manchester Airport) 7 have been "p-coded".

 

[Killingworth]

I see that of the 13 timetabled services today from Lancaster to Barrow (some start at Manchester Airport) 7 have been "p-coded".

Out of 14 stopping services between Manchester and Sheffield today only 4 are running. Fortunately TPE and EMR can cover end to end users on our line but for others it's the car or stay at home.

Over many years Northern management has been very well aware of the underlying issue. So have been unions and workers at most levels. Every manager is aware of risk assessments - but none seems to have made practical plans to deal with the very obvious risk of running a business on voluntary overtime. Too hard. Government is, of course, implicated here as ignorance of the finer details of anything seems to escape all of them.

Almost everyone on this forum is pro-rail. Outside the big city commuting areas the majority of the population is ambivalent and sometimes hostile to rail. Extra money won't come easily.

The travelling public doesn't want to know how the issues have evolved, some with roots in practices possibly predating the 1923 groupings! Privatisation and renationalisation make lasting resolutions extremely challenging.

 

[Kite159]

The managers of Metrolink & bus companies in Manchester must be rubbing their hands in glee with the extra customers they are getting, from those living in the outer suburbs (say Marple) who will drive into one of the multiple P&R Metrolink sites and use the tram.

Similar probably to Sheffield and maybe even Nottingham. The issue Northern will have is winning those customers back if things improve

 

[Vespa]

It seems there's a common theme, staffing and not enough if it either drivers or guards.

I've looked on Northern Rail website job page there don't seem to be many vacancies for guards and drivers for the routes that mattered.

I for one would have been happy to drive for Northern if there was a vacancy for my local depot but there's no openings so far.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Another day and all that...


*photo shows the departure board at Bolton station with many Northern cancellations...

 

[yorksrob]

Some cancellations on the Hallam line this morning - but due to an old banger of a freight train getting stuck, so Northern are exonerated this time.

 

[Killingworth]

Some cancellations on the Hallam line this morning - but due to an old banger of a freight train getting stuck, so Northern are exonerated this time.

They aren't for the 5 return service cancelled on the Hope Valley line since lunch time today. That included 2 successive trains leaving a 3 hour gap.

Thanks to the unreliability passengers who normally volunteer to use trains are opting to use cars, or stay at home.