Northern's social media policy criticised by Which?

[WelshBluebird]

And there are the predicable regulars who pop up time & again with exactly the same rants, the same insults & abuse.

Can we please stop putting people who complain regularly for genuine reasons in the same group and those who abuse and insult staff?

If someone's train is delayed every day, then I am sorry, but yes they do have a fairly solid right to complain about that every day. If Northern don't like that then maybe they should fix their service.

But this is exactly what I see with monotonous regularity. Often a thread starts out as "Why is the xx:xx to Victoria late", then when the Twitter team respond with something like "Sorry but there is a crew shortage" it can then often descend into "Blummin' Typical" & "Northern are a disgrace" & "I hate Northern" none of which helps to inform or resolve.

And why is that the problem of the person asking the initial question?

 

[Bantamzen]

Can we please stop putting people who complain regularly for genuine reasons in the same group and those who abuse and insult staff?

Why? Constantly disrupting people's queries, and complaints for that matter is against the feed policy. Whilst a member of their team might not be insulted by them, they still have to review each Tweet & waste time that could be better used trying to help those people asking for it.

If someone's train is delayed every day, then I am sorry, but yes they do have a fairly solid right to complain about that every day. If Northern don't like that then maybe they should fix their service.

And I don't disagree, but we are not talking about people who post up every day, we are talking about those people who chip in with their own views and get in the way of the conversation between the original Tweeter and the social media team.

And why is that the problem of the person asking the initial question?

Well if a thread gets out of control the app is going to post up potentially numerous notifications, and beside annoying the heck out of them might cause them to not notice a official reply to their issue. Let's put it bluntly, if someone hijacks a query from me they will get a gob-full and told to stick their opinions where light rarely reaches. If I am asking a question of Northern, I only want to hear from them not some nosey beggar with nothing better to do!

 

[pemma]

As someone who has worked alongside my employer's social media team for a public sector body that is even less popular than Northern, I can only say that the job is nothing short of a nightmare. Generally speaking social media feeds are used to publish information & to answer general queries. They are not forums like this for people to continually express their outrage at whatever the day's outrage is, nor is it a medium to spread malcontent because someone has an axe to grind. But this is exactly what I see with monotonous regularity. Often a thread starts out as "Why is the xx:xx to Victoria late", then when the Twitter team respond with something like "Sorry but there is a crew shortage" it can then often descend into "Blummin' Typical" & "Northern are a disgrace" & "I hate Northern" none of which helps to inform or resolve.

Some people are more reasonable than others. Some accept trains fail and staff might be delayed or have gone home sick. Others think only old trains fail and a train failure is Northern's fault for not having newer trains and that there should be more spare staff sitting around. However, even those who are reasonable start to get annoyed when every day they keep saying 'shortage of drivers' as most people are used to places of work where if an employer knows they are going to be short of resource in advance they try to get people to do overtime to plug the gap.

 

[Bantamzen]

Some people are more reasonable than others. Some accept trains fail and staff might be delayed or have gone home sick. Others think only old trains fail and a train failure is Northern's fault for not having newer trains and that there should be more spare staff sitting around. However, even those who are reasonable start to get annoyed when every day they keep saying 'shortage of drivers' as most people are used to places of work where if an employer knows they are going to be short of resource in advance they try to get people to do overtime to plug the gap.

I agree, and those people that accept that things go wrong will usually be more tolerant but will get fed up after a while. But there is a difference between getting annoyed and occasionally stating this & constantly saying the same thing in thread after thread, especially when thread starters might want some specific information. At the end of the day, and I'm sure we all know this here on these forums, endless Tweets to Northern, or indeed any TOC are not suddenly going to have Northern coming up with a magic plan to resolve all the current issues. I think by now Northern get that things really aren't that great in the N/W, and I'm sure that somewhere, someone is under severe pressure to get it solved, probably with a large bootprint on their behind. The same will probably be due at TransPennine HQ, Network Rail HQ & Whitehall.

Clogging up Twitter threads with pointless ranting doesn't achieve much, and often gets in the way of any kind of resolution. Passengers who feel aggrieved, any many have the right to, should complain officially to Northern but also to NR and to their MP, because the blame can & should be equally proportioned to the operators, NR & DfT. Leave Twitter for those people who want on-the-spot info, the ranting and annoyance is better placed on places like this.

 

[yorkie]

Well if a thread gets out of control the app is going to post up potentially numerous notifications, and beside annoying the heck out of them might cause them to not notice a official reply to their issue.

This can be avoided by the customer using the "mute" option on the person who is annoying them and causing them not to notice Northern's reply.

It cannot be avoided by Northern blocking the person who is being annoying; this only stops Northern seeing their replies.

Let's put it bluntly, if someone hijacks a query from me they will get a gob-full and told to stick their opinions where light rarely reaches.

You are advocating dishing abuse on twitter?

If I am asking a question of Northern, I only want to hear from them not some nosey beggar with nothing better to do!

If you want to send a message privately, then unfortunately sending a Tweet does not actually achieve that. A private question is better placed by email, telephone, or a DM on Twitter.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Why? Constantly disrupting people's queries, and complaints for that matter is against the feed policy. Whilst a member of their team might not be insulted by them, they still have to review each Tweet & waste time that could be better used trying to help those people asking for it.

And I don't disagree, but we are not talking about people who post up every day, we are talking about those people who chip in with their own views and get in the way of the conversation between the original Tweeter and the social media team.

Well if a thread gets out of control the app is going to post up potentially numerous notifications, and beside annoying the heck out of them might cause them to not notice a official reply to their issue. Let's put it bluntly, if someone hijacks a query from me they will get a gob-full and told to stick their opinions where light rarely reaches. If I am asking a question of Northern, I only want to hear from them not some nosey beggar with nothing better to do!

The thing is, people in this thread haven't just been having a go at the kind of people you mention.
They are also saying that the following people should be blocked:

• Those who have valid complaints / questions on a regular basis because the service on some lines is so bad on a regular basis.
• Those who jump in on another discussion because the rail company has given out completely incorrect information (I am aware this then adds some complexity where the person replying may be wrong too, but certainly I have been in some situations at a station where the ToC is tweeting out statements that are completely opposite to the actual situation on the ground).
• Those who jump in on another discussion to add their weight to a particular complaint (I dunno, say if someone is asking about getting a connection held, it may make it more likely to happen if 5 other people reply too saying they also need the connection held compared to if it was just 1 person asking).

 

[Bantamzen]

This can be avoided by the customer using the "mute" option on the person who is annoying them and causing them not to notice Northern's reply

It cannot be avoided by Northern blocking the person who is being annoying; this only stops Northern seeing their replies.

This is true, but not everyone knows this and it can still cause annoyance if several people are chipping in. But this is not the point and you know it, why should people asking legitimate questions or complaints have to put up with randoms offering their opinions on a medium offered as an additional portal between passenger and operator?

Let me put this in another context. Imagine you are in a queue at a ticket office, there is one seller & there are 10 people in front of you and you need a ticket for a train in 15 minutes. Now if everyone in front buys their ticket or makes their query without any third party intervention, you should have a good chance of getting things sorted in time.

Now imagine some person interfering with every transaction or query, telling the seller that they are selling the wrong ticket, or giving the wrong advice, or just generally making a nuisance of themselves & as a result you miss your train. How do you feel? Do you congratulate them on a job well done, or do you want them to be asked to leave?

You are advocating dishing abuse on twitter?

Did I say that? No. And no I don't advocate abuse, I would simply tell the person that they are being a pain and not helping. Just in the same way I would tell someone to stop putting words in my mouth...

If you want to send a message privately, then unfortunately sending a Tweet does not actually achieve that. A private question is better placed by email, telephone, or a DM on Twitter.

The feed is there so people can ask real time questions like "When is my train coming?" or "How do I buy a ticket as the machine is broken" or even "My xx:xx has been cancelled again, I'm not happy and I want to complain so how do I do it?", it is not there just for people to generally moan & groan & vent their general feelings towards Northern. Unfortunately this is exactly what happens, and not just on Twitter feeds but across social media in general.[/QUOTE]

 

[yorkie]

This is true, but not everyone knows this and it can still cause annoyance if several people are chipping in. But this is not the point and you know it, why should people asking legitimate questions or complaints have to put up with randoms offering their opinions on a medium offered as an additional portal between passenger and operator?

If we are getting back to the point, it is that people are being blocked by Northern (which makes no difference to what is seen by passengers) for the reasons stated in the post above yours by @WelshBluebird.

Let me put this in another context. Imagine you are in a queue at a ticket office, there is one seller & there are 10 people in front of you and you need a ticket for a train in 15 minutes. Now if everyone in front buys their ticket or makes their query without any third party intervention, you should have a good chance of getting things sorted in time.

Now imagine some person interfering with every transaction or query, telling the seller that they are selling the wrong ticket, or giving the wrong advice, or just generally making a nuisance of themselves & as a result you miss your train. How do you feel? Do you congratulate them on a job well done, or do you want them to be asked to leave?

This isn't an appropriate analogy. However if I asked for a ticket, and the ticket office tried to sell me the wrong ticket, and someone with local knowledge was able to intervene, resulting in me realising I was being misadvised and therefore able to ensure I was sold the correct ticket, I would congratulate them. Who wouldn't?

I can't imagine many people want to be sold the wrong ticket, but if you have a different view, we can agree to disagree!

The rest of your post appears to have got lost in incorrect quote tags, but I am not sure I'd equate giving someone "a gob-full and told to stick their opinions where light rarely reaches" is wise.

 

[Bantamzen]

The thing is, people in this thread haven't just been having a go at the kind of people you mention.
They are also saying that the following people should be blocked:

• Those who have valid complaints / questions on a regular basis because the service on some lines is so bad on a regular basis.
• Those who jump in on another discussion because the rail company has given out completely incorrect information (I am aware this then adds some complexity where the person replying may be wrong too, but certainly I have been in some situations at a station where the ToC is tweeting out statements that are completely opposite to the actual situation on the ground).
• Those who jump in on another discussion to add their weight to a particular complaint (I dunno, say if someone is asking about getting a connection held, it may make it more likely to happen if 5 other people reply too saying they also need the connection held compared to if it was just 1 person asking).

So to answer those points:

• I don't believe there has been a suggestion that regular posters, i.e. people starting threads with queries or complaints are being banned for this.
• As for those trying to correct what they see as incorrect information, are they taking responsibility if/when a passenger takes their advice and ends up stranded or hit with a fine / penalty fare / excess charge? If the answer is no, then I would say unless they can be 100% certain that the information is correct at the time of posting then they should not get involved. For example if someone asks "When is the late running xx:xx due in", & Northern reply with one time but someone else responds with a post stating the time it is due in has just been announced then that is fair enough. I've done it myself & even been thanked by the team for the update. But where advice is based on opinion or what they personally think is right, then the lines become blurry.
• As I've just said to Yorkie, Twitter isn't there just to rant & vent. The more people that post generic moans, the longer other people with real time queries have to wait. There are channels for making formal complaints, and these should always be the course to take.

 

[yorkie]

As for those trying to correct what they see as incorrect information, are they taking responsibility if/when a passenger takes their advice and ends up stranded or hit with a fine / penalty fare / excess charge?

Are Northern taking that "responsibility"? Many TOCs do issue incorrect information via Twitter, and Northern are certainly no exception to this.

If the answer is no, then I would say unless they can be 100% certain that the information is correct at the time of posting then they should not get involved.

Firstly, Northern's own Twitter staff do not get everything 100% correct. I am glad you seem to agree that if the person issuing the correction can be 100% certain the information is correct that they can get involved. I agree if someone cannot be certain they shouldn't.

For example if someone asks "When is the late running xx:xx due in", & Northern reply with one time but someone else responds with a post stating the time it is due in has just been announced then that is fair enough. I've done it myself & even been thanked by the team for the update. But where advice is based on opinion or what they personally think is right, then the lines become blurry.

So you have corrected Northern's Twitter team for giving out information to other customers?

So we are in agreement that this should be acceptable, and that you should not be blocked for doing this?

That's a relief, we can stop arguing now!

 

[Bantamzen]

Are Northern taking that "responsibility"? Many TOCs do issue incorrect information via Twitter, and Northern are certainly no exception to this.

Firstly, Northern's own Twitter staff do not get everything 100% correct. I am glad you seem to agree that if the person issuing the correction can be 100% certain the information is correct that they can get involved. I agree if someone cannot be certain they shouldn't.

And if Northern give out incorrect information the passenger can formally take this up with them, possibly to even seek a refund / compensation. Will any third party offer the same, will they say if I've got this wrong drop me a DM & I'll sort you out?

So you have corrected Northern's Twitter team for giving out information to other customers?

So we are in agreement that this should be acceptable, and that you should not be blocked for doing this?

That's a relief, we can stop arguing now!

If people are giving advice that can be shown to be up to date & accurate (i.e. they've just heard an announcement over the tannoy), then yes its fine & Northern quite clearly for all the drama on this thread don't mind. But you, I and indeed the rest of the members here know quite well the kind of people we are discussing as I'm sure most if not all will have seen what actually goes on.

I'll make the point again, the feed is for real-time queries from passengers, and indeed to make real-time complaints. It is not for general moaning, groaning or debating how good/bad Northern are. If the site gets swamped, Northern could quite within their rights pull the lot and we all lose a valuable communication tool.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I work in a call centre, obviously I can't say what Northerns is like, but we get regular moaners! If you block them on one channel they only use another! We have a list of names not to engage with. The trouble with Twitter is that it is very public. We have training sessions where twitter responses from other companies are used as examples of good and bad service, because they can be easily found. Companies wanting to stop their consistent moaners helps to eliminate these issues! that said, we don't block people unless they are being offensive or very problamatic, and then it is only after warning them it will happen.

Social media is the cheapest form of contact for the company, so is generally encouraged. Phone is the most expensive, so is discouraged, As many customers as possible you can get to contact through social media the better.

 

[yorkie]

I work in a call centre, obviously I can't say what Northerns is like, but we get regular moaners! If you block them on one channel they only use another! We have a list of names not to engage with. The trouble with Twitter is that it is very public. We have training sessions where twitter responses from other companies are used as examples of good and bad service, because they can be easily found. Companies wanting to stop their consistent moaners helps to eliminate these issues! that said, we don't block people unless they are being offensive or very problamatic, and then it is only after warning them it will happen.

Social media is the cheapest form of contact for the company, so is generally encouraged. Phone is the most expensive, so is discouraged, As many customers as possible you can get to contact through social media the better.

Agreed, that sounds much more sensible.

There is absolutely no prospect of Northern closing their Twitter feed, as suggested in the post above yours, any time soon.

 

[AlterEgo]

A lot of people overthinking here and being rather dramatic.

I’ve done this job and I’ve literally never had to block anyone. It is not a hard job unless you want to make it hard.

 

[Bantamzen]

A lot of people overthinking here and being rather dramatic.

I’ve done this job and I’ve literally never had to block anyone. It is not a hard job unless you want to make it hard.

There is a lot of drama on the subject, I totally agree. People running to the press and others getting annoyed over people being blocked from a social media feed is real First World problem material.

My pint hasn't got a proper Yorkshire head on it! Does anyone have the email address for the Daily Mail editor....

 

[Deafdoggie]

We fight to get a social media shift, people moaning on twitter is far better than them moaning on the phone to you!

 

[Bantamzen]

We fight to get a social media shift, people moaning on twitter is far better than them moaning on the phone to you!

This much is true! Perhaps people wouldn't reach for Twitter for their moans if customer service centres had a delay before allowing a Tweet?

"We are sorry, you are 489th in the Tweet Queue. Your Tweet is important to us...."

 

[Deafdoggie]

This much is true! Perhaps people wouldn't reach for Twitter for their moans if customer service centres had a delay before allowing a Tweet?

"We are sorry, you are 489th in the Tweet Queue. Your Tweet is important to us...."

I'll pop it in the suggestion box!

 

[AlterEgo]

Northern’s corporate comms takes a further nosedive:

https://twitter.com/rogerj_01/status/1002586204297138177?s=21

Tweet is from Roger Johnson, presenter of BBC North West Tonight:

#NorthernRail with a masterclass in crisis management.
NWT News Ed: Will someone please come on @BBCNWT live tonight to explain what's happening?
Northern Press Office: No
NWT News Ed: How about Monday?
Northern Press Office: You can ask if you like. But it'll still be no.

 

[Jimmy Foster]

Northern’s corporate comms takes a further nosedive:

https://twitter.com/rogerj_01/status/1002586204297138177?s=21

Tweet is from Roger Johnson, presenter of BBC North West Tonight:

very strange - their Communications Director is having a mare if he/she thinks this is a sensible approach.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Made me chuckle today, we had a serial complainer who constantly rang in was abusive, got cut off, called back, was abusive got cut off, called back...They blocked his number in the end. It isn't just twitter it happens on!

 

[B&I]

Maybe the best way to handle this is to have different twitter fees. One for general enquities, and another for venting, perhaps #sameoldnorthernrubbish or such like

 

[Bantamzen]

Made me chuckle today, we had a serial complainer who constantly rang in was abusive, got cut off, called back, was abusive got cut off, called back...They blocked his number in the end. It isn't just twitter it happens on!

And so they should!

Maybe the best way to handle this is to have different twitter fees. One for general enquities, and another for venting, perhaps #sameoldnorthernrubbish or such like

That might be one way, but there would always be those who would still try to use the general enquiries one for venting. And besides both would require staffing resources, and what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that companies don't employ people just to listen or read people's day to day general moans & groans. If they did it would require considerably more staff than most would ever be prepared to commit fnances to. Taking the allegedly blocked user quoted in the original linked article, they seem to heckle Northern rather than ask questions or make specific complaints. So take this and potentially thousands of others doing the same, and suddenly they are taking up a considerable amount of staff time & not answering actual queries which might go some way to explain why eventually some get themselves blocked.

 

[AlterEgo]

And so they should!



That might be one way, but there would always be those who would still try to use the general enquiries one for venting. And besides both would require staffing resources, and what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that companies don't employ people just to listen or read people's day to day general moans & groans. If they did it would require considerably more staff than most would ever be prepared to commit fnances to. Taking the allegedly blocked user quoted in the original linked article, they seem to heckle Northern rather than ask questions or make specific complaints. So take this and potentially thousands of others doing the same, and suddenly they are taking up a considerable amount of staff time & not answering actual queries which might go some way to explain why eventually some get themselves blocked.

There aren’t thousands of trolls or nuisance accounts. Northern have a few dozen. Virgin had the same and so do XC.