Norton Bridge capacity improvements and new services

[jw]

Network Rail are stating that the forthcoming works in the Norton Bridge area will allow extra services. Any idea what these will be? Could this be a second hourly Virgin service to Liverpool? An extension of a Virgin Birmingham terminator to Manchester?
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2...tinue-check-before-you-travel-this-Christmas/

Stafford area improvements

The improvements in the Stafford area seek to remove a major bottleneck. Once complete, the £250m programme will facilitate the introduction of new timetables between 2015 and 2017 and help to create the capacity to run:

• Two extra trains per hour (each direction) between London and the north west of England
• One extra fast train per hour (each direction) between Manchester and Birmingham
• One extra freight train per hour (each direction) through Stafford

 

[The Planner]

I wouldnt expect anyhing as Euston starts getting bashed about in 17 for HS2.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Network Rail are stating that the forthcoming works in the Norton Bridge area will allow extra services. Any idea what these will be? Could this be a second hourly Virgin service to Liverpool? An extension of a Virgin Birmingham terminator to Manchester?

The WCML RUS gives some hint of what is possible: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...west coast main line/westcoastmainlinerus.pdf
But this document is 3 years old and I think it is less clear what will happen now.
The ICWC franchise shambles means there is no plan for more franchise services, and certainly no more trains, until the rebid in 2017 (also for West Midlands/LM). XC has no plans for more services either.
Then there's HS2. Some people on here say that capacity at Euston will go down when they start construction around 2017, which will prevent new services.

The RUS talks about extra services from London to Preston/Blackpool and/or Liverpool (the remaining hourly services after Birmingham and Manchester's 3tph).
But there are no trains to operate new services.

Some rerouting of current services might be done, eg to revise LM's 350 services to Crewe/Liverpool, or to join up LM/NT services at Stoke.
Alliance has put a bid in for Open Access services to Blackpool/Leeds from 2017, but we are no closer to knowing the outcome of that bid.
Alliance won't order trains without an access agreement.

I think we are 5+ years from getting any real extra services via Stafford (ie settle the new franchises and then build some new trains).
There is supposed to be an industry body looking at a new timetable to use the new capacity for 2017.
What do other folk think?

 

[thenorthern]

I can't see them managing to fit anything extra via Stoke-on-Trent as things currently stand so I would think Blackpool or Liverpool would be the most likely.

On a side note will this mean the end for Norton Bridge station and will it finally properly close?

 

[The Planner]

Norton Bridge will never reopen. There is an industry planning group looking at the WCML but its a long way from producing anything.

 

[Starmill]

Norton Bridge will never reopen. There is an industry planning group looking at the WCML but its a long way from producing anything.

I agree with you that a passenger train isn't going to be calling there any time soon, but it can't reopen when it isn't closed! The post above asks if the station's closure needs to be officially ratified.

 

[thenorthern]

If London Midland did want to close Norton Bridge would it be likely that the Dft would say no? With amount of infrastructure required to re-open it and the amount of passengers that would use a re-opened Norton Bridge I can't see it ever re-opening.

Looking at the timetable I would think it would be Liverpool that would benefit from an extra train to London so I think Liverpool would be the most likely to gain an extra service if one did come about. Liverpool always seems a bit off the beaten track to me with only 1tph to London compared to other much smaller cities in the area such as Preston 2tph, Stoke-on-Trent 3tph and Chester 1tph.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looking at the timetable I would think it would be Liverpool that would benefit from an extra train to London so I think Liverpool would be the most likely to gain an extra service if one did come about. Liverpool always seems a bit off the beaten track to me with only 1tph to London compared to other much smaller cities in the area such as Preston 2tph, Stoke-on-Trent 3tph and Chester 1tph.

Some of those frequencies are indirect/stoppers and don't really count.
By that token LM only have to connect the 2tph Liverpool-Birmingham with their Birmingham-Euston and hey presto Liverpool has 3tph...

The RUS rehearses some of the options, including a scarcely believable 4th Manchester as well as Preston and Liverpool options.
From what I see, the busiest trains at the moment are the Glasgows, and one plot is for a second Preston service to take over the Warrington/Wigan stops away from the Glasgow (also to stop in the Trent Valley and extend to Blackpool/Lancaster).
The Liverpools are not as busy (hence why the off-peak ones now call at Crewe).
Alternating between Preston and Liverpool might satisfy everybody.
LM also wanted a Birmingham-Preston service and an LM Birmingham-Manchester also crops up in examples.
LM perhaps stand a better chance of getting stock quickly for these (ie readily obtainable EMUs), unlike VT who will need tilting stock with a long build time.

But HS2 casts a long shadow.
DfT might decide to defer buying new WCML stock until the lines further north can be worked with "classic-compatible" stock via HS2.

 

[Aictos]

Some of those frequencies are indirect/stoppers and don't really count.
By that token LM only have to connect the 2tph Liverpool-Birmingham with their Birmingham-Euston and hey presto Liverpool has 3tph...

Would it be possible for a 3rd LM operated service between London and Liverpool via Birmingham to NOT have to travel via the Northampton Loop?

 

[thenorthern]

Would it be possible for a 3rd LM operated service between London and Liverpool via Birmingham to NOT have to travel via the Northampton Loop?

If London Midland did operate a London to Liverpool train I have no doubt it would run along the Trent Valley.

 

[Class 170101]

If London Midland did operate a London to Liverpool train I have no doubt it would run along the Trent Valley.

I partially agree with this statement but equally LM could do what Virgin have done and join service groups up at New Street should they so wish.

However I think a second LM service is needed along the Trent Valley particularly with demand increasing as it has been there are now ticket restrictions on a Saturday forcing people to buy more expensive tickets.

 

[thenorthern]

I partially agree with this statement but equally LM could do what Virgin have done and join service groups up at New Street should they so wish.

However I think a second LM service is needed along the Trent Valley particularly with demand increasing as it has been there are now ticket restrictions on a Saturday forcing people to buy more expensive tickets.

Agreed the Trent Valley London Midland should be half hourly as Nuneaton, Tamworth and Stafford are quite big places.

Not sure if a joined up Liverpool to London via Birmingham would work as I think punctuality would suffer going in and out of Birmingham New Street.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Agreed the Trent Valley London Midland should be half hourly as Nuneaton, Tamworth and Stafford are quite big places.
Not sure if a joined up Liverpool to London via Birmingham would work as I think punctuality would suffer going in and out of Birmingham New Street.

One of the LM plans was to divert the Trent Valley/Stoke service at Stafford to Liverpool, while sending one of the Birmingham-Liverpools via Stoke to compensate.
I don't know if that is still on the agenda.
If that did happen, they would probably double it up to 8-car rather than double the frequency.
Maybe split at Crewe for Liverpool/Preston.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

From what I see, the busiest trains at the moment are the Glasgows, and one plot is for a second Preston service to take over the Warrington/Wigan stops away from the Glasgow (also to stop in the Trent Valley and extend to Blackpool/Lancaster).

I'd agree, there's a definite need for a 2nd hourly train London-Preston and beyond. The current service is often full to the point of finding a seat being difficult south of Lancaster.

But of course, as you've hinted at, there are no spare Pendolinos to run such a service (and I'm not sure if there are any spare paths at the London end either).

More generally I have to admit I'm struggling to think what improvements can come of the Norton Bridge works in the absence of more rolling stock - hopefully Network Rail have some idea.

 

[The Planner]

Should be able to speed up the Brum Man Picc XC services as well as the Virgins. It will probably squeeze out more freight than suggested as well.

 

[Class 170101]

Getting hold of tilting stock may be possible from XC if replaced by HSTs. How many Super Voyagers do XC have?

Also the 350/4s will return to LM once TPE gets their new electric stock. So there may be some scope there for an extra hourly service along the Trent Valley.

 

[Chester1]

I'd agree, there's a definite need for a 2nd hourly train London-Preston and beyond. The current service is often full to the point of finding a seat being difficult south of Lancaster.

But of course, as you've hinted at, there are no spare Pendolinos to run such a service (and I'm not sure if there are any spare paths at the London end either).

More generally I have to admit I'm struggling to think what improvements can come of the Norton Bridge works in the absence of more rolling stock - hopefully Network Rail have some idea.

DB/Arriva/Alliance/GNWR's plan is to have 6 daily trains from Blackpool and Leeds (via Manchester Victoria) to London Euston, both using 5 carriage new tilting trains. Blackpool services would stop at Preston and both services would stop at Warrington. Its a step in the right direction but to crudely put it into perspective thats 30 carriages per day for each services. Thats a London service capacity increase of 20% for Preston + Wigan and 6% for Manchester to London services. Its surprising that they arent planning longer trains. Alliances plans for recreating GNER include hourly 9 carriage services between London and Edinborough. That service alone would have more capacity than the other planned GNER service from Bradford, both Grand Central services and both planned GNWR services put together.

 

[The Planner]

Makes no difference, as mentioned before, their plans cant get them into Euston only Queens Park and that big thing called HS2 is going to cause them more grief once the get towards London.

 

[Chester1]

Makes no difference, as mentioned before, their plans cant get them into Euston only Queens Park and that big thing called HS2 is going to cause them more grief once the get towards London.

My understanding was that the Blackpool service had provisional paths into Euston depending on what happens during the rebuilding. That is far from "can't get them into Euston". Also, should they be unable to stop at Euston then the likihood is that Cross Rail will be extended to Tring and that there will be be a stop to interchange with it, which will be good enough for most people.

 

[The Planner]

With the rebuilding there is no way they will get in to Euston. As for Tring, good luck with that one, especially if you are on the fasts...

 

[Starmill]

Crossrail at Tring? Am I missing something...?

 

[The Planner]

Nope, it is now a proposition to send the planned Padd terminators on Crossrail up to Tring via the WCML slow lines.

 

[Chester1]

With the rebuilding there is no way they will get in to Euston. As for Tring, good luck with that one, especially if you are on the fasts...

If Arriva is investing a significant sum of money into trying to setup the services they must be confident they can provide a decent service one way or another. The plans for Euston havent been decided yet, we dont know what the capacity is going to be and what services will be diverted into other terminals. Either through extra franchise services or open access services space will be made in the next few years for more services from the North and Scotland to London. There simply wont be enough capacity on current services until 2026. It will be a struggle to get another service into Piccadilly so GNWR plan to use Manchester Victoria has allot of merit.

 

[thenorthern]

After the Chase line is electrified in 2017 I think there will be direct trains from Cannock to Liverpool so that might have something to do with it personally I can think of more useful places for Cannock to have direct trains to but thats just me.

 

[The Planner]

. The plans for Euston havent been decided yet, we dont know what the capacity is going to be and what services will be diverted into other terminals. Either through extra franchise services or open access services space will be made in the next few years for more services from the North and Scotland to London. There simply wont be enough capacity on current services until 2026. It will be a struggle to get another service into Piccadilly so GNWR plan to use Manchester Victoria has allot of merit.

On the contrary, there is a lot of joint work going on behind the scenes between HS2, DfT, NR and the TOCs on the interim infrastructure and train specs. I really wouldnt expect long distance services to be diverted into other terminals either, the only one I would forsee moving in the interim would be the beds.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Semi-related so I may as well ask - what's capacity like over the 2/3-track section between Colwich and Milford & Brockton / Whitehouse? Is there much scope for growth over that stretch or is it nearing capacity?

 

[Class 170101]

With the rebuilding there is no way they will get in to Euston. As for Tring, good luck with that one, especially if you are on the fasts...

Presumably the links between the NLL and the WCML will remain open during this re-build. So how about running to St Pancras instead?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Presumably the links between the NLL and the WCML will remain open during this re-build. So how about running to St Pancras instead?

It's just a single track connection from the NLL into St Pancras, and it ends up in an international platform.
All you can do is reverse out to HS1.
That's my reading of Quail anyway.
You would also block the WCML at Camden Jn and impede the freight flows to/from the NLL.
There is only a slow line connection.

 

[The Planner]

Semi-related so I may as well ask - what's capacity like over the 2/3-track section between Colwich and Milford & Brockton / Whitehouse? Is there much scope for growth over that stretch or is it nearing capacity?

It is getting a bit cosy along there it has to be said.

 

[Chester1]

On the contrary, there is a lot of joint work going on behind the scenes between HS2, DfT, NR and the TOCs on the interim infrastructure and train specs. I really wouldnt expect long distance services to be diverted into other terminals either, the only one I would forsee moving in the interim would be the beds.

How will they solve north-south capacity before 2026? I cant see how more WCML trains can be avoided for the next 12 years even with modest passenger growth. Manchester Victoria-London services seem the best option because of lack of capacity into Piccadilly. If not Euston then were?